December 3, 2013 at 1:25 am
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Data Preservation
December 3, 2013 at 2:03 am
A lot of music has been lost too. In the 80s and early 90s1 a lot of bands started out by releasing singles on vinyl either individually or through tiny labels. The media has a reputation for being damaged beyond use if treated badly. Another media, cassettes, has the same issue. Both of which may also have been discarded. I should imagine that this is just a different version of what has always occurred: the most popular things will be remembered and repeated. This has happened in music and poetry as well as stories which were originally only held verbally (see Homer for an example - not Simpson!!!).
I have total faith that the digital photos will be convertible because the formats are widely known so, even if it will cost, there will be conversion services or readers available. I think the bigger problem is the vast amount of photos the current generations are producing as I can imagine that more photos are taken on an average night out than my Mum took on our annual holiday (vacation to you overponders ;-)) which accounted for over half the yearly photos taken. Also loss due to services disappearing. How many people back up their Facebook photos?
As for databases? I think that if there is some real value then the data will have been transferred and if there is some historic value than there will be digital historians who will learn to dissect digital archives. Perhaps akin to archeologists. The rest will be eventually be discarded as irrelevant.
1 It may have occurred longer than this but I am not that knowledgable. Sorry.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 3, 2013 at 2:21 am
Nice topic Steve,
I totally agree with your worries as same applies to me & everyone here.
I think this as negative effect of evolution. As other user mentioned, same thing has happened to music also.
It does not matter if you have made copies of your digital data on Hard disk, CD ROM or DVD. Because sooner or later, they are going to vanish (Just like TAPE drive). Another problem is tools to use that digital data. What if you have saved all images in JPEG format and music in MP3 format and that formats are extinct for your grandchild ?
In big picture, this problem is not only for digital data. It is very big. What if we have preserved all books in ENGLISH today, but ENGLISH itself might gets extinct after couple of decades. I remember that same problem raised when USA government had to bury their radio active waste.
Really mankind has to do more efforts in this way at earliest. Meanwhile, we can only try and hope for best.
For my personal digital data, twice a year, i recall all my old data and backup them and current data to latest available media (Currently DVD or Blue Ray). I know, i have to do this again and again and data is going to grow exponentially. But there is no alternative i can see around. This is very difficult for companies having TB's of data.
Thanks for reading,
December 3, 2013 at 3:53 am
I once attended a session where the process for archiving state records in Michigan was discussed. They talked about maintaining records in a digital format and having to burn fresh CDs / DVDs every five years due to the deterioration that can take place within that media.
Most interestingly, they also stated that, regardless of the digital storage, all records also had to be stored in a "human-readable" form - micro card or microfiche or something along those lines.
In the article referenced, they mention that in some ways an older movie on film is more stable and safe than a 2-year-old movie stored digitally, because of this same "human-readable" concept.
I attended that session 15 years ago or more, and still think of this concept on a regular basis.
December 3, 2013 at 3:56 am
This is where the cloud services can help. For example, if you have a music store then why not raise the level of abstraction and store a piece of music which can be retrieved as many different formats but the service guarantees that its storage is lossless. The same could be applied to pictures, video and documents.
Any VCs want to give me a load of cash? 😎
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 3, 2013 at 5:17 am
Todd Townley (12/3/2013)
Most interestingly, they also stated that, regardless of the digital storage, all records also had to be stored in a "human-readable" form - micro card or microfiche or something along those lines.In the article referenced, they mention that in some ways an older movie on film is more stable and safe than a 2-year-old movie stored digitally, because of this same "human-readable" concept.
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Years ago I was on a tour of the Paul Garber facility near DC. This is where the National Air and Space Museum warehoused and restored much of its collection (A large part of which is now in the Udvar-Hazy annex out at Dulles).
A researcher on the tour explained the #1 archival medium is microfilm/microfiche. The reason is simple: it is technology-independent. All you need to retrieve the data is a candle and a magnifying glass. Someone asked about digital storage and he held up an old 12" laser disc (yeah, this was quite a while ago). He said, "In 10 years or so, you'll have yourself a very pretty frisbee."
____________
Just my $0.02 from over here in the cheap seats of the peanut gallery - please adjust for inflation and/or your local currency.
December 3, 2013 at 6:32 am
Back in the "Dark Ages" (1985), I worked for a major insurance firm (COBOL programmer). It was decided that in addition to tape storage, all "important" documents would be stored on microfiche/film.
MG
"There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies."
Tony Hoare
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
December 3, 2013 at 6:47 am
n big picture, this problem is not only for digital data. It is very big. What if we have preserved all books in ENGLISH today, but ENGLISH itself might gets extinct after couple of decades. I remember that same problem raised when USA government had to bury their radio active waste.
I remember reading that another part of the problem for the radioactive waste problem was they needed to use a medium that would last for millennia. I seem to recall one of the solutions mooted was to etch the records on to stone tablets because that was about the only thing that could be guaranteed not to degrade.
I also remember my high school technology teacher telling us that the designs for the Harrier Jump Jet were stored on punched tape in a fireproof room because that would survive the EM pulse from a nuclear detonation. This was in the mid-90's so there were other storage media available but they were all magnetic. I imagine shortly after that the designs were transferred to CD though.
How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537
December 3, 2013 at 9:09 am
Gary Varga (12/3/2013)
I have total faith that the digital photos will be convertible because the formats are widely known so, even if it will cost, there will be conversion services or readers available. I think the bigger problem is the vast amount of photos the current generations are producing as I can imagine that more photos are taken on an average night out than my Mum took on our annual holiday (vacation to you overponders ;-)) which accounted for over half the yearly photos taken. Also loss due to services disappearing. How many people back up their Facebook photos?
I actually grab my Facebook stuff every quarter. They make it easy to export, though it's not quick.
Volume is a huge issue. Right now YouTube gets over 24 hours of video every second uploaded. It's not all from me, but I have some up there. I worry about those older videos, those photos, etc. being converted. I suspect there will be services software to do it, but it's not necessarily an easy process. Already I know I have digital and analog video tapes that may be lost since I'm not sure the devices work. I should convert our VHS stuff over now while we can.
December 3, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Thanks for the topic.
As one who has used old data for trend analysis and environmental change I have found that not only the media the data is one degrades over time but the data itself often does. The idea here is that the instrument and the calibration of the instrument that took the readings that became the data is so inaccurate compared to the current methods and technology of taking the same reading today that old data must be accompanied with a caveat.
Some old data is very valuable, and old pictures are great. We need to find ways to keep it so those grandchildren do have a record.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
December 3, 2013 at 7:39 pm
Then there is a question of what really needs to be retained.
In the past I was the responsible archivist for financial data, including mortgage payments. So the way the law is currently crafted is that you need to maintain the last seven years of data for IRS purposes, but technically had to delete the data older than seven years (plus 30) from mortgages that had paid off. I came up with a CD/DVD system that had the zip software of the backup and a copy of the SQL Server installs in use at the time. The application wasn't there, but the data was.
That was after I had to do a tape search of loans we had done in Georgia, over five years earlier, that was an abysmal failure.
I swore that I would never leave myself or my successors over such a large abyss ever again.
But sometimes I think of Jeff Atwood's comment of using paper. And if you think of how much history was preserved on papyrus (Dead Sea Scrolls) or stone (the Pyramids) it might not be a horrible idea.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
December 4, 2013 at 1:59 am
This topics emphasizes that if long term retrieval is a required then this has to be designed in from day one.
I have worked on a project to retrieve data from 7 years worth of backup tapes and it was painful. The backups were designed to protect day-to-day OLTP and not a data warehouse type operation.
Music lost from the 80's and 90's? Playing devil's advocate is that necessarily a bad thing?!?!? If it was any good then it is probably still being played on independent (UK) radio and definitely is by my noisy neighbours!
As to the long term worth.....if you've ever cleaned out your house and brutally got rid of all the things that "might have been useful one day" but somehow never were its amazing how much you don't miss it, or in many cases even remember you had it.
December 4, 2013 at 3:21 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/3/2013)
Gary Varga (12/3/2013)
I have total faith that the digital photos will be convertible because the formats are widely known so, even if it will cost, there will be conversion services or readers available. I think the bigger problem is the vast amount of photos the current generations are producing as I can imagine that more photos are taken on an average night out than my Mum took on our annual holiday (vacation to you overponders ;-)) which accounted for over half the yearly photos taken. Also loss due to services disappearing. How many people back up their Facebook photos?I actually grab my Facebook stuff every quarter. They make it easy to export, though it's not quick.
Volume is a huge issue. Right now YouTube gets over 24 hours of video every second uploaded. It's not all from me, but I have some up there. I worry about those older videos, those photos, etc. being converted. I suspect there will be services software to do it, but it's not necessarily an easy process. Already I know I have digital and analog video tapes that may be lost since I'm not sure the devices work. I should convert our VHS stuff over now while we can.
There was a large bustle of activity here in the UK when photos went digital with loads of digitising services (if you could afford it).
...Steve you have got to know that it was not people here that I was questioning were backing up their Facebook photos (I am sure you will eventually find that you have some fan who maintains a record of your famous Hawaiian shirts thereby providing a free backup of some of your photos!!!).
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 4, 2013 at 3:25 am
David.Poole (12/4/2013)
...Music lost from the 80's and 90's? Playing devil's advocate is that necessarily a bad thing?!?!? If it was any good then it is probably still being played on independent (UK) radio and definitely is by my noisy neighbours!...
I disagree so this may make me a valuable source of late 80s/early 90s UK indie music...along with my Adolescent Radioactive Black-Belt Hamsters comics 😉
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 4, 2013 at 9:07 am
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