May 30, 2012 at 7:56 am
GSquared (5/30/2012)
Doctor Who 2 (5/29/2012)
So, how does one go about finding a better experience at job hunting, with solid companies that have more to offer than a pay check?In terms of networking for job opportunities, have you tried LinkedIn? That's how I got my current job. Ask the tech people you know about good recruiters in areas you are willing to move to, or in your current community.
Also, get more involved with a local user group or, if one does not exist, then try to find some way of meeting local people (assuming you prefer to not move) who work in the same field. Ask them about their companies and if any sound interesting then ask if they are hiring. Many companies give referral bonuses to employees as it is much cheaper than what they would pay to a recruiter so some people might be inclined to recommend you for an open position if they feel you would be a good fit.
Good luck!! 🙂
Take care,
Solomon.....
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May 30, 2012 at 10:42 am
When the economy is slow and jobs less plentiful and the future is in doubt (like now) you can get away with paying good people less than what they are really worth. That's just the way it is.
Man, that is the truth! and don't think for one minute companies don't take full advantage of those circumstances either.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 31, 2012 at 12:21 am
stephanie.sullivan (5/29/2012)
IceDread (5/29/2012)
Most of you on this board is in the u.s. I believe however, and my gut feeling is that companies does not compete over workforce like this and are more interested into abusing their employees? That does of course happen in Sweden as well but it would seam the market has evolved to the better over the course of history. Is my gut feeling correct or wrong?I'd concur with you there- the American relationship between employer and employee seems a lot more fraught and ripe for abuse, than it does in the UK.
In terms of interviews, I've turned down jobs based on interviews but not many and the main reason has been I'd be bored there. I thoroughly recommend brent ozar's blog for some excellent interview tips and questions.
Well, yes that's what I'm inclined to believe.
I got some interesting answers also from some u.s.a. citizens and it would seam their view does not converge with my thoughts.
GSquared (5/29/2012)
IceDread (5/29/2012)
I agree that interviews are a tricky thing. Thou I do a bit like your friend does, prepare questions and read about the company on the web and what others says about the company while trying to keep an open mind.The interview is about you and the company, do you feel yourself that you will fit in and would like to work there? It's two parts interviewing each others. Perhaps that is a luxury for us in the IT busies but I think it's healthy.
To your first questions thou, which I believe you just wrote to put some questions into our heads thou I'd like to answer anyway because I think I have a strange answer. I've worked overtime one single evening over the last one and a half years since I've been at this current job. I do not mind working overtime when it's needed, it can even be fun and build team spirit but there simply has not been a need for it. I think this is important and other companies should learn from it. I also believe it's one way to keep your employees healthy and less inclined to look around for a new job.
Most of you on this board is in the u.s. I believe however, and my gut feeling is that companies does not compete over workforce like this and are more interested into abusing their employees? That does of course happen in Sweden as well but it would seam the market has evolved to the better over the course of history. Is my gut feeling correct or wrong?
There are, of course, employers that abuse the relationship with their employees, and employees who abuse the relationship with their employer. That's true of any form of human interaction. But the majority don't abuse, either direction. That's also true of any human interaction.
The usual ratio, in any culture, is about 1 in 5 people are going to abuse a relationship (employee-employer, marital, whatever). About 2-3% of any given population are actively and wilfully dangerous to the people around them, some covertly and some overtly.
That's not limited to the US. That's humanity-wide.
There are means of detecting and dealing with that kind of thing, which can be easily learned.
Human nature actually varies a lot depending on culture. That's not to say I don't agree.
Usa has had a different history, very very short history compared to other countries and a lof of that history has been fighting the socialistic politics which usually stands for the right to a union, free health care, free school etc. Things many European countries takes for granted. Usa has always been more extreme to the right and with the extreme wealth variations in usa population I still have the same feeling in my gut.
May 31, 2012 at 7:36 pm
GSquared (5/30/2012)
Doctor Who 2 (5/29/2012)
Interesting editorial, Steve. I'm a little surprised that there isn't more buzz on this topic. I'd like to bring up a little different spin on this; if you'd rather it not go that way, please feel free to kill my diversion right away.I've been at my current employer for a very long time. So long, that my interviewing skills, quite honestly, aren't as good as they were. But I'm really feeling the need to start looking elsewhere. There are good things about my current job; management isn't bad, for example. But the stress is just going higher than I think it should be. We've lost half of our IT/developer staff over the last 12 months. (This is a small group, so half means 2 people.) We were told that they would replace one of them with someone who has the skills that the other developer and I don't have. We are developers, and I'm the default DBA, due to loosing the only DBA we had 3 years ago. But where we totally don't have any experience is setting up servers, etc. However, we're being forced into it, and I'm totally uncomfortable with this. My employer won't pay anything for any training, and won't let us take any time off to learn, and won't let us learn on the job, unless a crisis has occurred which stops business. Well, we're in a crisis situation and so I'm working on setting up a new server. I only pray to God that I'm getting it right. I hate being responsible for something I don't know anything about. I ask questions about this on the ServerFault.com, but my questions are considered to ignorant and backward so are often voted down. Well, I can't help the fact that I don't know what I'm doing and having to ask the simplest of questions. (I guess on ServerFault.com, there are stupid questions, since mine get voted down.)
Sorry, I digress. Let me cut to the chase and try to bring this back, more or less, to Steve's topic. I'm miserable at networking for new employment, as the best advise suggests you do. When I start a job search, what invariably happens to me is I get bajillions of emails and phone calls from recruiters who are offering 4 to 8 months contract positions, without any benefits, for companies I've never heard of, in places I don't want to live. Why is that? I get the feeling that if I were to accept one of those positions for a 4 month contract, and move at my expense to some place 100 miles north of the arctic circle, that once the contract is over, it will be, "Well, that was fun! Good luck finding something else!!" So, how does one go about finding a better experience at job hunting, with solid companies that have more to offer than a pay check?
Sounds like the current job is at a dying company. If so, getting out is definitely a good idea. I've been through the "deaths" of two companies, and it's not a pretty thing.
In terms of networking for job opportunities, have you tried LinkedIn? That's how I got my current job. Ask the tech people you know about good recruiters in areas you are willing to move to, or in your current community.
On the short/medium contracts you're running into: Unless moving is going to be quite cheap, I don't recommend moving for one of those. If you live by yourself, and can uproot and move with few if any consequences and minimal expenses, then contract-hopping all over the place can be quite an adventure, but it's not to everyone's taste. And definitely doesn't work well if you have children, etc., because of intereference in school attendance and all that.
The way contracts usually work is, if they won't be renewed, they let you know well before-hand, sometimes a couple of months early, and you start looking for your next contract then. (At least, that's the theory. Some employers aren't that well organized, of course.) That means you usually know weeks before a contract expires, who your next contract is, where, and so on. One of the advantages of contract work is that nobody takes offense if you're job hunting from your desk at work.
Direct-hire employees who are found surfing Monster.com or Dice or whatever, are going to be in disfavor with HR, at the very least. Contractors, it's expected behavior, and nobody gets bent out of shape on it.
So, if you want more permanent work, you'll need to find a market for it. I can't help you directly there, but sites like Monster and Dice probably can. (Unless you're in central Florida, in which case, I can tell you what the job market looks like.) If you like the idea, or can at least live with it, of working less permanently on contracts, don't worry about "nice to have you here, don't let the door hit you on the way out". (Well, unless you deserve that or get one of the rare employers who treats everyone that way.) Contract work isn't as scary as it initially looks. At least, not in the markets I've seen.
No, GSQuared, I haven't tried LinkedIn. I am on it, but tend to spend my time there either interacting with others on questions, answering them, etc. How did you use LinkedIn to get the position you're in now?
Rod
June 1, 2012 at 11:22 am
Doctor Who 2 (5/31/2012)
No, GSQuared, I haven't tried LinkedIn. I am on it, but tend to spend my time there either interacting with others on questions, answering them, etc. How did you use LinkedIn to get the position you're in now?
I've heard from lots of recruiters, and even a couple consulting companies that they are looking on LinkedIn almost exclusively for people that might fit open positions.
Fill out your profile in detail, add in links to any projects, blogs, etc.
June 1, 2012 at 11:51 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (6/1/2012)
Doctor Who 2 (5/31/2012)
No, GSQuared, I haven't tried LinkedIn. I am on it, but tend to spend my time there either interacting with others on questions, answering them, etc. How did you use LinkedIn to get the position you're in now?
I've heard from lots of recruiters, and even a couple consulting companies that they are looking on LinkedIn almost exclusively for people that might fit open positions.
Fill out your profile in detail, add in links to any projects, blogs, etc.
I've gotten a couple of emails recently from LinkedIn recently. Not currently looking since I got my current position.
June 4, 2012 at 6:21 am
sturner (5/30/2012)
mtucker-732014 (5/29/2012)
I think that of all the things a company can do to attract and keep good employees there is one universal truth - if you dont pay good people good money they will leave. Its a false economy to try to squeeze the salary budget.When the economy is slow and jobs less plentiful and the future is in doubt (like now) you can get away with paying good people less than what they are really worth. That's just the way it is.
But keep in mind, at least in the US, IT unemployment is actually very, very low. SQL DBAs, it's something like 1% right now, for example. Companies are dumping administrative and secretarial and such, but are hiring IT in order to automate. That's how "the economy is improving" but unemployment keeps going up. (The only decreases in US unemployment in the last 4 years have been when they stopped counting people, not when hiring actually increased; hiring hasn't increased, except in a few industries.) Companies are automating and using IT to increase efficiency, so unemployment in related areas is actually very low. That shows in salaries, benefits, etc.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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June 4, 2012 at 6:25 am
IceDread (5/31/2012)
...Human nature actually varies a lot depending on culture. That's not to say I don't agree.
Usa has had a different history, very very short history compared to other countries and a lof of that history has been fighting the socialistic politics which usually stands for the right to a union, free health care, free school etc. Things many European countries takes for granted. Usa has always been more extreme to the right and with the extreme wealth variations in usa population I still have the same feeling in my gut.
Human nature doesn't vary per culture. Cultural nature varies. Humans are human, no matter what culture they are part of. There are certain characteristics that are constant regardless of culture. The things that cause variations in human "constants" are brain damage (either kinetic/electrical, chemical, or genetic) and drug use. The numbers I cited are planet-wide and culturally agnostic.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
June 4, 2012 at 6:30 am
Doctor Who 2 (5/31/2012)
...No, GSQuared, I haven't tried LinkedIn. I am on it, but tend to spend my time there either interacting with others on questions, answering them, etc. How did you use LinkedIn to get the position you're in now?
Sorry for the delayed answer. I've been sick in bed for a few days.
I contacted my LinkedIn contacts (including some from this site), and asked for referals to either recruiters or hiring-managers. I got digital introductions to a number of good recruiters, and almost immediately had a bunch of interviews lined up. Took about 2 weeks to get a really good job, the one I'm still at. Without the introductions, job hunting was going slowly, painfully, and unproductively. With them, it went fast, efficiently, and effectively.
That's not to say you'll have the same experience I did. I'm just letting you know that it worked great for me. Your Mileage May Vary, and all that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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