October 13, 2011 at 9:26 am
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
OK... gotta add my 2 cents.To the Original poster - someone else has already mentioned calling the stored proc using dao/ado in Access. The sp you post COULD be translated into MSAccess, but it would probably involve using VBA and queries using queries that use queries. Big Mess.
To the Access/SQL debate - they both have DB engines but BIG differences in capacities. Access also has presentation tools that SQL doesn't without the CLR integration. They are both adequate tools for their target user groups.... and Access makes a pretty good front end to SQL Server's DB engine - IMHO.
EDIT -
OH... and as far as VBA being a scaled down VB6... you can add the VB6 extension library AND you can call windows API functions directly. That's actually pretty powerful.
Yes it is powerful. But it IS a scaled back version of VB6. It is also nearly 20 years old. I will take dotnet over VBA anyday.
I would disagree that it makes a good front end. It does do a decent job of making an acceptable front end very quickly.
It also gives the ability of non-programmer types to put together really quick and easy applications. I would argue this is a bad thing. I have called Access the "Corporate Cancer" for a long time. People tend to build data silos of mission critical information. While this is good for quickly getting this type of functionality in the hand of the users it is dangerous for the business in the long run.
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October 13, 2011 at 9:28 am
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
SSRS is only equivalent to Access reports - and from what I've done so far, it's kind of clunky but that's probably my lack of experiance.SQL Server has no equivalent to Access forms - unless I'm really missing something 😀
not arguing or lapsing into unprofessional comments as someone else did, just putting out my opinion that they are very different products but actually both are pretty good at what they were intended for.
Sql server was not build to be all in one. It as built to be the flagship db system for MS. We're not comparing the sames things at that point.
October 13, 2011 at 9:41 am
Sean - yeah, my company is going through some growing pains getting rid of some end user developed Access DB's. (We are actually a large agency that is the result of combining 7 agencies that all had their own IT!) We will have to agree to disagree on MSAccesses usefulness and the power of VBA (when used with VB6 extensions and Windows API). Of course, API access will probably go away in future versions of Windows.
Ninja's_RGR'us - I agree, we're NOT comparing the same things. Without meaning to provoke argument, that was sorta my point. Different target audiences, but both useful in their own right.
now, everyone shake hands and the first round is on me
October 13, 2011 at 9:46 am
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
Sean - yeah, my company is going through some growing pains getting rid of some end user developed Access DB's. (We are actually a large agency that is the result of combining 7 agencies that all had their own IT!) We will have to agree to disagree on MSAccesses usefulness and the power of VBA (when used with VB6 extensions and Windows API). Of course, API access will probably go away in future versions of Windows.Ninja's_RGR'us - I agree, we're NOT comparing the same things. Without meaning to provoke argument, that was sorta my point. Different target audiences, but both useful in their own right.
now, everyone shake hands and the first round is on me
Sorry but I don't drink :-).
Agreed they are for different market. But I still preffer SS* over access any day.
Now if you're talking about ADP then I absoletely agree that this makes a powerful mix of front end / back end.
October 13, 2011 at 9:47 am
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
Sean - yeah, my company is going through some growing pains getting rid of some end user developed Access DB's. (We are actually a large agency that is the result of combining 7 agencies that all had their own IT!) We will have to agree to disagree on MSAccesses usefulness and the power of VBA (when used with VB6 extensions and Windows API). Of course, API access will probably go away in future versions of Windows.Ninja's_RGR'us - I agree, we're NOT comparing the same things. Without meaning to provoke argument, that was sorta my point. Different target audiences, but both useful in their own right.
now, everyone shake hands and the first round is on me
Certainly nothing even remotely hostile in our discussion and I would love to shake hands and toss back a few cold ones. 😀
I don't even think we necessarily disagree about the capabilities of VBA, I just don't like it.
Let the disagreements begin on what beverage for round one, my vote is Guinness!!!
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Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
October 13, 2011 at 9:55 am
Sean Lange (10/13/2011)
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
Sean - yeah, my company is going through some growing pains getting rid of some end user developed Access DB's. (We are actually a large agency that is the result of combining 7 agencies that all had their own IT!) We will have to agree to disagree on MSAccesses usefulness and the power of VBA (when used with VB6 extensions and Windows API). Of course, API access will probably go away in future versions of Windows.Ninja's_RGR'us - I agree, we're NOT comparing the same things. Without meaning to provoke argument, that was sorta my point. Different target audiences, but both useful in their own right.
now, everyone shake hands and the first round is on me
Let the disagreements begin on what beverage for round one, my vote is Guinness!!!
Sorry, still don't drink :-D.
October 13, 2011 at 10:54 am
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
patrickmcginnis59 (10/13/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
tsql <> query?Who the heck are you kidding with this?
Sure, if you want to consider SQL Server as one big blob of program then thats fine, I'm not going to disuade you from that. If SQL Server is T-SQL in your mind then of course, just like if you think VBA and Acess with JET is the same thing.
Sure, I wouldn't hire you either, but thats probably outside the scope of this discussion 😛
That's crossing the line between different thinking and unprofessional.
In my opinion you should be able to evaluate features independently, and you don't seem to want to. I'm not forcing you to, but I think you should be able to, especially given the complexity of what we do. Additionally, if you could not discuss features at such a granular level during a technical interview with me, then I would decline to offer. This doesn't make you a bad guy, nor should it make me somehow unprofessional.
October 13, 2011 at 11:12 am
patrickmcginnis59 (10/13/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
patrickmcginnis59 (10/13/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
tsql <> query?Who the heck are you kidding with this?
Sure, if you want to consider SQL Server as one big blob of program then thats fine, I'm not going to disuade you from that. If SQL Server is T-SQL in your mind then of course, just like if you think VBA and Acess with JET is the same thing.
Sure, I wouldn't hire you either, but thats probably outside the scope of this discussion 😛
That's crossing the line between different thinking and unprofessional.
In my opinion you should be able to evaluate features independently, and you don't seem to want to. I'm not forcing you to, but I think you should be able to, especially given the complexity of what we do. Additionally, if you could not discuss features at such a granular level during a technical interview with me, then I would decline to offer. This doesn't make you a bad guy, nor should it make me somehow unprofessional.
SS = Datastore
Access = Datastore + FE.
Glad we got this sorted out.
When did this turn into a tech interview???
October 13, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
Sean Lange (10/13/2011)
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
Sean - yeah, my company is going through some growing pains getting rid of some end user developed Access DB's. (We are actually a large agency that is the result of combining 7 agencies that all had their own IT!) We will have to agree to disagree on MSAccesses usefulness and the power of VBA (when used with VB6 extensions and Windows API). Of course, API access will probably go away in future versions of Windows.Ninja's_RGR'us - I agree, we're NOT comparing the same things. Without meaning to provoke argument, that was sorta my point. Different target audiences, but both useful in their own right.
now, everyone shake hands and the first round is on me
Let the disagreements begin on what beverage for round one, my vote is Guinness!!!
Sorry, still don't drink :-D.
<insert Remi's beverage of choice> on me!!!
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
October 13, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Sean Lange (10/13/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
Sean Lange (10/13/2011)
Uripedes Pants (10/13/2011)
Sean - yeah, my company is going through some growing pains getting rid of some end user developed Access DB's. (We are actually a large agency that is the result of combining 7 agencies that all had their own IT!) We will have to agree to disagree on MSAccesses usefulness and the power of VBA (when used with VB6 extensions and Windows API). Of course, API access will probably go away in future versions of Windows.Ninja's_RGR'us - I agree, we're NOT comparing the same things. Without meaning to provoke argument, that was sorta my point. Different target audiences, but both useful in their own right.
now, everyone shake hands and the first round is on me
Let the disagreements begin on what beverage for round one, my vote is Guinness!!!
Sorry, still don't drink :-D.
<insert Remi's beverage of choice> on me!!!
Water it is! 😛
October 13, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
Now if you're talking about ADP then I absoletely agree that this makes a powerful mix of front end / back end.
plus 1
also DSNless MDE's to preconfigured SQL views work well across LANs.
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October 13, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
patrickmcginnis59 (10/13/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
patrickmcginnis59 (10/13/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/13/2011)
tsql <> query?Who the heck are you kidding with this?
Sure, if you want to consider SQL Server as one big blob of program then thats fine, I'm not going to disuade you from that. If SQL Server is T-SQL in your mind then of course, just like if you think VBA and Acess with JET is the same thing.
Sure, I wouldn't hire you either, but thats probably outside the scope of this discussion 😛
That's crossing the line between different thinking and unprofessional.
In my opinion you should be able to evaluate features independently, and you don't seem to want to. I'm not forcing you to, but I think you should be able to, especially given the complexity of what we do. Additionally, if you could not discuss features at such a granular level during a technical interview with me, then I would decline to offer. This doesn't make you a bad guy, nor should it make me somehow unprofessional.
SS = Datastore
Access = Datastore + FE.
Glad we got this sorted out.
When did this turn into a tech interview???
I was just offering an honest opinion of what I saw as an area of improvement.
I had originally replied that I didn't think that T-SQL was all that good a language. SSCrazy then replied that T-SQL was way more powerful than the query engine in Access and of course I said I couldn't address that because I didn't consider T-SQL the query engine. I think this is when your head exploded right?
Again, if you think T-SQL is SQL Server or "T-SQL is a query engine" then in my opinion you should reconsider, and I meant to emphasis how important I considered this with the employment metaphor. After all, many of us do this for a living, and qualifications for duty can clearly be a point of discussion. But I don't personally find you a bad fellow because you view SQL server as just a datastore.
So we're all good now right?
October 13, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Glad we agree to disagree on something that's obviously just semantics.
October 13, 2011 at 4:32 pm
patrickmcginnis59 (10/13/2011)
I was just offering an honest opinion of what I saw as an area of improvement.
Ah, nothing like a good thread abduction to attempt to make a statement. I do love that.
I had originally replied that I didn't think that T-SQL was all that good a language.
Your opinion. It has its quirks and foibles like any logical programming language does. It happens to be declarative instead of procedural as its primary and this is usually annoying to those who come to SQL from the front end perspective. It does allow for procedural components but that's not its primary purpose so they feel like add ons... because they are, particularly to a number of the ANSI standards.
SSCrazy then replied that T-SQL was way more powerful than the query engine in Access
Actually, that's Sean Lange. SSCrazy is merely his forum title, like any of the other forums with those 'how many posts you have' kind of things. We usually ignore them round here but I realize you're new and may not be used to the interface.
and of course I said I couldn't address that because I didn't consider T-SQL the query engine.
Of course it isn't, the same way that VBA, VB.Net, and C# are not the actual compiler. They are, however, your interface to them, the same way that T-SQL is the interface to the SQL Server Engine and Optimizers. You are being willful in purposely misdirecting the point of the statement.
The Query Engine that lies under the query mechanics of the Access system (MSDE/JET) are not as powerful as the encoding that lies in the optimizers for SQL Server. As a few examples, Tempdb secondary I/O, sub-table spooling, index short-circuiting for semi-top queries, and a number of other items. Access' JET engine is a brute force tool as it's usually not expected to deal with the same data volumes.
I think this is when your head exploded right?
This is where things start getting unprofessional again.
Again, if you think T-SQL is SQL Server or "T-SQL is a query engine" then in my opinion you should reconsider, and I meant to emphasis how important I considered this with the employment metaphor.
A poor choice of approach, unfortunately. However, it's an argument of semantics, not intent. Being that detailed when discussing things with an obvious newbie (not you, the OP) to the environment is more likely to confuse than educate.
After all, many of us do this for a living, and qualifications for duty can clearly be a point of discussion.
Sure, in a discussion about employment. It has no place here. The validity of the statement does.
But I don't personally find you a bad fellow because you view SQL server as just a datastore.
Now... thank you, that just made my day. :w00t: I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Might I recommend you read through Ninja's history of posts before you decide to continue down that path?
Well, or don't. I always need more humor.
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October 13, 2011 at 5:11 pm
That datastore comment might have come from me first in the sense that access is all in one package VS sql that is <mainly> a datastore.
The exception being SSRS obviously.
I've worked with both products and understand the strengths and limitations of each.
If I had to do a quick project for myself I'd quite likely choose sql express for the datastore, ssrs for reporting and access as the front end to input the data.
For reports in a smaller project it's a toss up. Access is a decent env. but I still preffer ssrs.
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