July 20, 2009 at 9:36 am
Blacks aren't a minority group in South Africa. If you want to get technical, down here I'm part of the 'discriminated against' minority.
Those with long memory will not agree.
I've written and spoken about that before. It's not that there's blatant discrimination all over the place, there isn't.
The Economist call that a chimera.
Then that affects everyone who wants to write the exams, not a subset of candidates.
It can actually exclude the less prepared.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 9:46 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
I also think your views are based on your experience.
Everyone's views are, at least in part, colored by their experiences.
That being said, I have had the distinct pleasure of working with a supervisor who had his Master's degree in CS from Harvard. Couldn't get out of his own way. And with, I guess I'm crazy, for I begin my master's studies this fall.
Of the major indicators, certs are on the bottom if considered at all. I'm more interested in work experience. For an entry level position, I want to know course work in school, and then throw a couple of general logic questions and see how they think. I'm not so interested in hearing the right answers, I want to know that they can think about something and do so in an intelligent way.
As far as the paper tigers go... A good friend of mine wanted to change careers. So he went and bought a couple of books on accounting. Read them over the weekend. Took the CPA exam within a couple of days. Passed. Got started, decided he wanted more. Bought a book about being a CFA (charted financial analyst), took the test within a week. Passed! He's the exception.
Then again, I started my career working for a Director at Aetna. Hired as a director at the age of 22, earned his J.D. from Harvard law school by his 18th birthday.
Come to think of it, I know (or have known) a great number of "geniuses" (11, and of that 3-4 must be aliens, for they are scary smart, and I'm not exaggerating.) I guess I'm the exception to that group, I'm sort of the lackey, laughable oaf.
Honor Super Omnia-
Jason Miller
July 20, 2009 at 9:56 am
but I have to wonder if there are other reasons to explain the constant barrage of problems you have faced other than your gender or minority status.
Discrimination talks about exclusion which always brings out interesting questions about the person questioning the default. The character questioning is standard practice in the US.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 10:37 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
but I have to wonder if there are other reasons to explain the constant barrage of problems you have faced other than your gender or minority status.
Discrimination talks about exclusion which always brings out interesting questions about the person questioning the default. The character questioning is standard practice in the US.
Except for not being Chinese I fit into all of the categories you are talking about (same gender, same city, same technical specialty, same certifications) yet I have not experienced any of these things in my career EVER. So I see three possibilities: 1) I have beaten all the statistics and am exceptionally lucky 2) the discrimination you've faced is actually based on your being a minority, not female, or 3) there is another explanation for at least some of the roadblocks you've faced.
I don't doubt that you have experienced some discrimination. I do doubt that EVERYTHING you are attributing to discrimination is actually that however, because if it were statistically speaking I would have experienced it at least once in my career and dealings with Microsoft. I think once you've been discriminated against once it is easy to assume that is the cause for every negative experience, but not necessarily correct.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
July 20, 2009 at 10:54 am
I think once you've been discriminated against once it is easy to assume that is the cause for every negative experience, but not necessarily correct.
I don't make such generalization because my comment was based on your comment.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 11:12 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
I think once you've been discriminated against once it is easy to assume that is the cause for every negative experience, but not necessarily correct.
I don't make such generalization because my comment was based on your comment.
But you have made such generalizations in previous posts.
July 20, 2009 at 11:18 am
But you have made such generalizations in previous posts
The US celebrates changes and pretend the bad seldom happen.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 11:26 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
But you have made such generalizations in previous posts
The US celebrates changes and pretend the bad seldom happen.
Again, another generalization. Bad things do happen, and have happened. The past is just that, the past. You can't do anything to change it. The future is yet to be known, so that leaves the present. here is where we live and work. This is where we try to make changes that will affect the future so that, where possible, those bad things that have happened in the past don't happen again, or at least as frequently, in the future.
July 20, 2009 at 11:39 am
This is where we try to make changes that will affect the future so that, where possible, those bad things that have happened in the past don't happen again, or at least as frequently, in the future.
I did there is still no valid replacement for me on the certification forum I regret leaving there because I did not expect the extraneous effect on most trying to be C# certified. In my defense I left many qualified to replace me.
The same thing on the base class languages but I am grateful to Steve and Redgate so I am not in a hurry to go back.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I considered certifications long ago but once I started studying for them (at the time it was Windows NT) I realized they weren't really going to help me do my job and as soon as one was completed, a new one was out and I didn't have another $5000 to get re-certified. I take specific classes as needed and buy lots of books so I can pick and choose what I really need. Mix in some online training and it can be a good package. Yes, it may make it so I miss some of the "features" that MS has to offer but that is why we attend seminars to see what's new and see if we want to dive in.
I do like the idea of teaching more advanced technology to high school students - I don't necessarily think gearing it toward a particular certification is the way to go but exposure at that level can at least provide some options.
As far as hiring, my experience has been pretty negative where certifications are the applicants primary means of knowledge. No real experience. They tend to think they know a lot more than they actually do. Theory vs. practice.
July 20, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I'm not confused. And I'm not saying this is the case, but I simply wanted to point out that the TONE made it seem like an article written by an old man who is mad that young folks getting certifications and "cheating" are clogging the job market.
I see that most people write that certifications don't qualify you for a job. That I certainly agree with. But, in the faceless world that we have become, what is the alternative when you have a pile of resumes and 30 minutes to read them?
July 20, 2009 at 12:32 pm
tclaxton (7/20/2009)
I'm not confused. And I'm not saying this is the case, but I simply wanted to point out that the TONE made it seem like an article written by an old man who is mad that young folks getting certifications and "cheating" are clogging the job market.I see that most people write that certifications don't qualify you for a job. That I certainly agree with. But, in the faceless world that we have become, what is the alternative when you have a pile of resumes and 30 minutes to read them?
If you are looking for an entry level person with little or no experience, the Certification could be what sets a person apart from the others. When looking for more experienced individuals, then the Certifications should play a lessor (and lessor) role as the more expereinced the individual you are considering. What added value does MCITP have when two people both have 10+ years experience other than one may have had the time to take the certification tests and the other didn't. Find out what they know and how they think, not if they had the time to take the tests or not.
July 20, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Certifications may be mostly worthless, taking the certifications is not. The exams (for DBA at least) cover a wide range of topics; if someone spends the time and understand all of these in detail they can't fail to improve their knowledge. Can the same information be obtained in even greater detail from books and the web? Absolutely, but studying for an exam tends to focus the mind (at least in my opinion).
I have no regrets about taking the MCITP; it doesn't substitute for experience but it gives a broad understanding of the product as a whole.
July 20, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Note that aptitude != skill. It means that they like computers and can use them, and perhaps, with time and experience, will become skilled.
Funny but that was what killed the Cisco high school experiment because kids want do binary math only as needed.
As far as MS/Novell/Cisco, etc. the exams in many cases have become a profit center. It's a way to make money. And that's a problem.
In Microsoft exams cover product development cost. I am not sure the developer and SQL Server 2005 and 2008 exams volume actually generates profit, but I could be wrong.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I've enjoyed reading the thoughtful perspectives here.
For my own contribution, I'm a DBA with ten years experience working in IT. My formal educational background is in biology.
My own experience is that things are improving- in terms of diversity on the West Coast. I'm a white male- but almost all the environments I've worked in professionally have been near 50/50 splits, in terms of gender. The stereotype that professional IT is a white guy playground seems patently false. I'm sure the experiences of others vary.
As for certification, it's a topic that comes up frequently- and I can't see the value. I've participated in a few hiring decisions, and the hallmark of a qualified candidate is always their answer to 'what have you done, lately?'
With the variety of free/low-cost database stacks available, the days of needing a spare production server and $10k in developer tools are gone.
I've seen C.Sci Master's types whom I wouldn't trust with a butter knife.
I've seen brilliant architecture from folks using hand-me-down boxes and spare time on weekends.
So in short- there's no magic piece of paper that speaks to competence, and I don't think there ever will be.
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