August 6, 2015 at 11:23 am
XYoung (8/6/2015)
janet.stockton-taylor (8/6/2015)
I did not say that it exists "everywhere". You're the only who said that. Perhaps you, while you worked in those "dozens" of shops, viewed the workplace with a strictly male lens and actually have no idea what women in those shops were going through. You were certainly quick to dismiss what I said. Makes me wonder if you dismissed your female coworkers just as quickly.Indeed. It's easy to say "inequality doesn't exist here" when they're not the one experiencing it.
Seemed like it was easier to say "inequality exists here" over a cartoon that was obviously comedic and not at all meant to be of a serious nature.
Also, I was raised by a mother and two sisters and was raised quite differently than most males in the south. So I assure you, I had no "rose colored glasses" on favoring men at all. In fact, your supposition couldn't be more inaccurate. I actually have preferred having female counterparts and superiors, because they tend to have less ego and focus more on working toward solutions rather than laying blame to solve problems where I've worked.
As for not knowing what women were going through, maybe I didn't know their most intimate personal details. However, I was involved *with* my female counterparts on a sexual harassment complaint at one employer where some managers saw it as part of their duties to proposition employees. So, I can relate a lot more than you'd assume as to what women go through in the workplace. I'd go into a lot more details, but it's fruitless.
And as for inequality? I'm the most experienced programmer where I work. I've programmed the programming language longer than anyone here. However, I'm the lowest paid. Why? Should I just assume that I didn't get way higher pay because I'm male in a female-dominated IT Department?
BTW, every female employee who has ever worked for me has gotten equal treatment from me. In fact, one who was my assistant whenever she needed to leave work early to get her children or something...I never made a fuss. In fact, I would just ask if there was anything that needed done before the end of the day...and do it for her. Same went for male employees. I believed in family first, and the welfare of children over that of making sure a PC got deployed or something.
The original assertion was made that a humorous cartoon was meant to be offensive, and that it was because the nature of IT is that it is ubiquitous that men dominate the IT world, i.e.- it's everywhere. That's what I dismissed, because most places I've worked at or with women had a significant presence. That's been in multiple companies, in multiple states, and in multiple of business sectors.
So perhaps, you both might be the ones who need to check for the tainted lens in thinking the IT world is still an overly male-dominated world. Maybe in your universe it is, but I can tell you it hasn't been that way in the majority at all where I've been. And, I've been everything from a supervisor/manager level all the way down to a travelling consultant on sites all over the United States.
And if you really need to ask someone just how polite, considerate, courteous, and professional I am, I will gladly in private refer you to any of my former female subordinates, peers, supervisors, or managers. I'm so horrible and a stereotypical, chauvinistic male that one former supervisor (who is female) told a former co-worker that she'd love to have me back working for her and would get me a job if I wanted one there.
But just because I don't cave and agree that a comedic cartoon was driven by a overly male-dominated IT world doesn't mean I'm wrong.
It just means I don't go and analyze every little thing for some hidden agenda. Sorry if that offends you.
August 6, 2015 at 2:20 pm
Wow. You've spent paragraph after paragraph telling everyone how vastly experienced you are, how sensitive and supportive you are to your coworkers, previous employers and employees love you. Yet, on this forum you dismiss and demean anyone that disagrees with you.
August 6, 2015 at 4:15 pm
The cartoon may be a joke, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate. No-one's seeking a "hidden agenda" - it's something that evidently jumps out to individuals with specific experiences.
I appreciate you going into such depths to assure us that you treat people equally. Being close to women and standing by them doesn't mean you fully understand their experience, however. I support and stand by my foreign friends when they're subject to racism, that doesn't mean I understand what they're going through - I never will as a person in my home country.
You seem to feel like this is all a personal attack. It isn't, and I'm saddened that whenever the subject of sexism is raised, some men feel the need to defend themselves and dismiss the experiences of others. YOU might be a good, sensible and well balanced person, but unfortunately not everyone is. It's a minority of men in the workplace who do make it difficult, but it doesn't mean our experiences are fabricated.
P.S my "tainted lenses" are probably still somewhat optimistic and naive, as I genuinely believe that things are better than they once were, and I believe I will see complete equality in the industry during my career. In fact, I think we're nearly there - but cartoons like the above don't help, no matter how harmless they may seem to individuals with happier experiences.
August 7, 2015 at 7:57 am
A) Where have I demeaned someone? I've simply disagreed and tried to show you that the cartoon wasn't an purposeful affront to women as some have drawn from it. I guess you didn't notice the stereotyped IT male with the big thick glasses and the pocket protector either? Why aren't you put-off about male IT staff being cast in the stereotypical geek look? Isn't that offensive too?
B) I don't see it as a personal attack. I use examples from my past because I can reference that as fact. I said I didn't know every intimate detail of my female counterparts feelings. However: 1) I used to be massively obese and lost a lot of weight, so I went through both the discrimination of being overweight...to being a fit, athletic male who was treated like a piece of meat by women (including one program manager whom I filed the harassment complaint against), 2) I was a "white" male who was the only male in an IT department amongst women who were all Native American working at a Native American tribe. And, I faced some (not a lot...just some) being looked down upon by those in the organization for not being Native American and working there.
I saw it more as an undeserved label that IT is so male dominated that it breeds some innate repression of women. I tried to use examples of having been in IT shops in a 20+ year career in both the public and private sector to show that IT, across the spectrum, is not so male dominated anymore. I remember days when it was. However, that has changed tremendously. Like I said. I am the only male IT staff member in my department. And, I love it. My co-workers are cool, laid-back, funny, nice, giving people. All women. They're easy to work with and very professional, but not so professional that they're overly uptight about every little thing.
I think a lot of what is driving male numbers up in IT, if anything, is the radical increase in H1B visas for tech workers in the past decade or so. A lot of the tech workers coming from other countries tend to be from societies where women are not encouraged to pursue professional careers let alone a technical one. Hence, the H1B visa program then would be inherently flooding the market with predominately male applicants for positions.
But again, I think the whole cartoon was taken the wrong way. I don't think this site promotes that sort of attitude toward women in any way. And, I don't think IT is as male-drive or male-dominated as some perceive it to be. Like I said, about half the shops I've worked in were majority female. Almost half were run by a woman or women.
If the world of IT is so predominately male and therefore promotes the repression of women in the field...how I could have had so many co-workers and superiors who were indeed female.
Therefore, I can't agree with the notion of IT being so tainted by men. I have no doubt that there are men in the field who are like that. But, I don't feel they are dominate across the entire field. And, I don't feel the women leadership are either even though I've been the victim of a female program manager making intimate advances toward me in the past.
I think IT is a field in the STEM group that has actually fully embraced women in the field and the workplace, and I for one...as a man...am glad about it. Like I said and will continue to say: in all my experience, I have enjoyed working with women in IT more than I have men in general.
But that's just my view. Take it or leave it. Good luck in your endeavours, and I hope you find or have a workplace fully suiting your preferences.
August 7, 2015 at 8:10 am
Well said, xyoung. I agree completely. Things are better. I'm currently in a job that just a few short years ago existed only in dreams.
jckfla doesn't get it. Isn't going to get it.
August 7, 2015 at 8:34 am
No, I get it. I have more than said I did.
It's just that you don't seem to have a grasp that a male can or has gone through similar (although perhaps not exactly the same) discrimination, repression, and attrition that some women have.
Believe it or not, it happens to men too.
However, I won't get upset by a comical cartoon. As much as it stereotyped a female, it also stereotyped a male in a less than positive, glorifying light. I saw people getting upset about the female stereotype, but not the male stereotype.
How is that fair or balanced? How is that not biased to make a point of a female being stereotyped, but let the male stereotype go without some chastising also? Why haven't you pointed that out as well?
For true equality, both sides must be treated equally. Just food for thought for you to think about. Have a good day.
August 7, 2015 at 9:01 am
jckfla (8/7/2015)
No, I get it. I have more than said I did.It's just that you don't seem to have a grasp that a male can or has gone through similar (although perhaps not exactly the same) discrimination, repression, and attrition that some women have.
Believe it or not, it happens to men too.
However, I won't get upset by a comical cartoon. As much as it stereotyped a female, it also stereotyped a male in a less than positive, glorifying light. I saw people getting upset about the female stereotype, but not the male stereotype.
How is that fair or balanced? How is that not biased to make a point of a female being stereotyped, but let the male stereotype go without some chastising also? Why haven't you pointed that out as well?
For true equality, both sides must be treated equally. Just food for thought for you to think about. Have a good day.
What was the male stereotype? That they were taking their jobs seriously? I would be interested to hear about the discrimination men experience in IT please - at the very least it may enable me to help my male colleagues in some way.
With all due respect, the quoted post does not address any points made by myself or Janet, and does not relate to your previous responses. Not once did you attempt to say "sexism harms both sides [insert explanation], how can we, as professionals, change this together?" It just came across as a needless defence, explaining how you personally are not prejudice against women in IT, ergo the problem doesn't exist. No-one tried to say that the majority of men in IT are sexist - in fact I made sure to explain that it is a minority of men, and also media portrayal that is harmful.
Perhaps your sudden change in response is due to feeling a little foolish? Personally I find it better to say "Apologies, that was
not my intention" and try to come to an understanding 🙂 This causes less embarrassment and usually leads to a more productive discussion.
August 7, 2015 at 9:10 am
Another question - why do a few people get so upset and defensive on the subject of sexism? Do they feel as though they are being made responsible? Or does it make them uncomfortable? Or do they just not care? I'm always very careful to say "a minority of men" and be very respectful, but still, there's always a handful who will attempt to silence others on this subject.
August 7, 2015 at 9:16 am
It would have been funnier had the subject of the cartoon been portrayed as a potbellied male DBA posing as a reclining Adonis. However, I'm sure it still would have ended up being deconstructed in a search for subtext.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
August 7, 2015 at 10:01 am
xyoung (8/7/2015)
Another question - why do a few people get so upset and defensive on the subject of sexism? Do they feel as though they are being made responsible? Or does it make them uncomfortable? Or do they just not care? I'm always very careful to say "a minority of men" and be very respectful, but still, there's always a handful who will attempt to silence others on this subject.
Who attempted to silence you?
As I saw, it was as discriminatory to portray the female in that cartoon as she was...as it was to portray the man as a mix between Dilbert and Milt from Office Space...it's a stereotypical male geek portrayal of IT guys wearing thick nerdy glasses and pocket protectors.
Just that no one brought that part up. The cartoon was brought up as casting the woman in a negative light.
And, I'm not defensive. I'm just pointing out sexism/discrimination isn't just man-on-woman, since this became about how women are put down. It can even be man-on-man. In fact, I am a bit sexist. I've admitted that in general I have preferred working with women because of their workplace demeanor. So there. I am biased. Right?
Just the mentioning of wanting equality, but then not making equal effort to point out all aspects of degrading/less-than-flattering portrayals made in the cartoon of image and character of both the man and the woman put me off. That was in no way equal treatment.
I think Eric is right tho...perhaps it would have been seen as more humorous to all parties if the person on the table had been male...even though it would have been just as sexist to portray a man as not knowing what database modelling is. There are, after all, men who aspire to/dream of being a model as well.
Anyways...have a nice day.
August 7, 2015 at 10:16 am
Perhaps "silence" was not the best word, but I wasn't talking specifically about this conversation.
I don't believe that being portrayed as geeky is offensive - it's how anyone in our line of work is portrayed, not specific to men/women/race etc. I didn't find it offensive that DBAs were portrayed as geeky, anyway. Perhaps it was to make it clear that they were serious characters?
I won't repeat what I've said in previous posts as evidently you're not interested. Have a great weekend!
August 7, 2015 at 10:51 am
As well, I don't think you recognized that the geeky looking stereotype of a computer person that generally started back in the early 1980s as a way of making fun of the stereotypical look/demeanor is not a very flattering or proper thing to portray either for geeks of today. Just like the stereotype that a female (or even a male if it had been one) would think that modelling a database would be laying on a work table with office laptop in a modelling pose.
But somehow, that slipped past most everyone. Only the gender image seems to have stuck out to most people. So, I won't repeat what I've said either about equality and all. Seems pointless now.
I hope you have a nice weekend too.
August 7, 2015 at 11:03 am
I agree that people interested in IT aren't portrayed in a positive light - the media constantly represents them as having skin disorders, vitamin D deficiencies, pale sweaty anxious people who live in their mothers basements and can't get boyfriends/girlfriends. This makes my eyes roll, but certainly doesn't damage my career or personal life. I have also never received offensive comments or reactions based on my interests or career, other than a poorly attempted chat up line of "you don't look like you work in IT!" (Wasn't sure what to make of that one!!)
In my experience, it's not as damaging as sexism, it really comes nowhere close.
August 7, 2015 at 11:34 am
Regarding the topic of busting stereotypes regading what a software engineer looks like, I found this recent article.
... Comments on Facebook and Twitter started piling up, dissecting her appearance — trying to decide if this campaign was specifically designed to catch the eye of predominantly male software engineers, or if she "looks like an engineer." ...
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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