August 5, 2015 at 10:12 am
GA-426632 (8/5/2015)
Do you have anything useful to say about the subject of cis-male dominance in IT?
Nope... To busy laughing at the funny cartoon. Doubt you are doing anything but still trolling :w00t:
August 5, 2015 at 10:23 am
SQLRNNR (8/5/2015)
Iwas Bornready (8/5/2015)
What came to mind for me was the dual meaning of the word modeling. I didn't read into it any deeper than that. It's sad that others still do. That's their cross to bear, not mine.I was thinking the same thing. Doesn't matter the gender of the model - it is still funny.
True. Chance that this joke would ever be told with a male model. 0%.
August 5, 2015 at 10:51 am
GA-426632 (8/5/2015)
Do you have anything useful to say about the subject of cis-male dominance in IT?
I'm not sure if you're addressing anyone in particular, but here is my take on it. First, I don't think those of us cis-males that make up the rank and file of IT should feel obliged to apologize or explain cis-male dominance in IT. I picture my own daughter following in my IT footsteps one day, and I treat female coworkers and candidates with the same consideration I'd want for her. However, it's ultimately HR and executive management on the business side that make hiring decisions, not us IT geeks in the trenches.
Obviously certain professions draw certain genders for whatever reason. For example, public school education, nursing, cosmetology, and hosting of daytime TV talk shows are overwhelmingly dominated by cis-females. Most probably there are cultural biases (TV, peers, religion, etc.) that drive men and women (starting when they're boys and girls) along career paths. However, as a geek, I'm unqualified to speak or account for shortcomings regarding our broader society in general. If it were up to me personally, there would be more women in IT. We won't have a 50/50 mix within the next five years, perhaps not even within this generation, but I do believe we're making steady progress.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
August 5, 2015 at 1:03 pm
GA-426632 (8/5/2015)
Do you have anything useful to say about the subject of cis-male dominance in IT?
Yes...let's talk about this...and "stereotyping".
a) The current government department I work for is 60% women.
b) The Fortune 500 corporation I worked for had about a 50-50 split of men vs women, and the software manager was female. She managed about 300 software engineers.
c) When I worked for a Native American tribe in the 1990s, I was the *only* male in the headquarter's IT department.
d) When I was a supervisor at that Native American tribe's housing authority, we were 50% female, 50% male in the late 1990s.
e) I worked in conjunction with a large, U.S. shipping corporation's logistics section in the early 2000s, and they were predominantly female.
Most of the IT groups I have worked for or ran were as much or predominantly female. And, I've worked in departments of between 2 and 300 people.
So, I think perhaps your perception of "male dominance" of the IT/IS/MIS/CIS world is quite stereotypical of the IT world in the 1970s and 1980s.
But from everything I've seen, there's not that dominance anymore. I've worked for small private companies to major Fortune corporations, small county IT groups to IT groups for cities and counties with 100ks of citizens.
Perhaps, it's time to re-evaluate your view of the IT workplace and reconsider your ideals that it is so male dominated?
Just a thought.
August 5, 2015 at 1:32 pm
jckfla (8/5/2015)
GA-426632 (8/5/2015)
Do you have anything useful to say about the subject of cis-male dominance in IT?Yes...let's talk about this...and "stereotyping".
a) The current government department I work for is 60% women.
b) The Fortune 500 corporation I worked for had about a 50-50 split of men vs women, and the software manager was female. She managed about 300 software engineers.
c) When I worked for a Native American tribe in the 1990s, I was the *only* male in the headquarter's IT department.
d) When I was a supervisor at that Native American tribe's housing authority, we were 50% female, 50% male in the late 1990s.
e) I worked in conjunction with a large, U.S. shipping corporation's logistics section in the early 2000s, and they were predominantly female.
Most of the IT groups I have worked for or ran were as much or predominantly female. And, I've worked in departments of between 2 and 300 people.
So, I think perhaps your perception of "male dominance" of the IT/IS/MIS/CIS world is quite stereotypical of the IT world in the 1970s and 1980s.
But from everything I've seen, there's not that dominance anymore. I've worked for small private companies to major Fortune corporations, small county IT groups to IT groups for cities and counties with 100ks of citizens.
Perhaps, it's time to re-evaluate your view of the IT workplace and reconsider your ideals that it is so male dominated?
Just a thought.
I would hope data professionals would know the difference between anecdote and data, but reality always disappoints. In fact the percentage of women in the field has dropped dramatically since the 70's and 80's.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-state-of-women-in-technology-15-data-points-you-should-know/
August 5, 2015 at 2:03 pm
There's some definite hateful trolling going on but not by Grasshopper.
As a 60 year old woman who has been in IT since the 80's I found the cartoon offensive.
Oh, I get the "joke". And it would be somewhat funny if the artist hadn't felt the need to show wise male admins who need to educate the dumb female in the IT world.
Just because you personally have not experienced the inequality does not mean that it has not or does not continue to exist.
August 5, 2015 at 2:15 pm
cdesmarais 49673 (8/5/2015)
jckfla (8/5/2015)
I would hope data professionals would know the difference between anecdote and data, but reality always disappoints. In fact the percentage of women in the field has dropped dramatically since the 70's and 80's.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding
...
In a study Google released last month, the company surveyed about 1,600 men and women. It showed that girls aren't really taught what computer science actually means, and are half as likely to be encouraged to study it. The words females unassociated with computer science used to describe it were "boring," "technology," and "difficult."
...
Much of this has to do with exposure to computer science before college and during college.
...
Who could work more to spark young women's interest in computer programming; would that be: public school teachers, parents, celebrities or members of the media?
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
August 5, 2015 at 3:12 pm
janet.stockton-taylor (8/5/2015)
There's some definite hateful trolling going on but not by Grasshopper.As a 60 year old woman who has been in IT since the 80's I found the cartoon offensive.
Oh, I get the "joke". And it would be somewhat funny if the artist hadn't felt the need to show wise male admins who need to educate the dumb female in the IT world.
Just because you personally have not experienced the inequality does not mean that it has not or does not continue to exist.
So...Just because you personally have experienced it so much, it's your right to assume that it does and continues to exist everywhere?
Sorry...I have not only worked in a dozen shops, but worked with probably 100 different business sectors and over 50 different governmental IT organizations on projects. Very, VERY few were almost exclusively men. That includes hotels, resorts, manufacturing, distribution, transportation, scientific research, governmental contracting, law enforcement, et al.
I've been in IT post-degree since the 1990s, and I've been writing code, maintaining computers, and teaching people to use them since I was a teenager in the 1980s when even very, very few adults even knew how to work a computer, let alone tell you the keystroke in DOS for a non-alphanumeric character or how to low-level format an MFM hard disk. (debug anyone?)
I've seen the lack of women in the field now turn into a field where women can and often do reach the top. Are there places that still have a majority male employees? Of course. Just like there are places that have a female majority now.
But is the field even close to saturated with males as it once was in this country? That answer is no.
There might be places it still exists, but it is not the status quo anymore in IT.
As for women being run off from IT, maybe that's not due to discrimination...but rather the majority of people coming into tech jobs on H1B visas (the number of which Congress has tripled in the past several years) are often from countries where women are looked down upon for pursuing a professional career. Therefore, the influx of immigrant tech workers being men means more men will be hired in turn into those positions.
But again, male dominated shops in IT are not the status quo anymore...and, taking a cartoon so seriously makes me think....you need a vacation far worse than I do. :laugh:
August 5, 2015 at 3:39 pm
Eric M Russell (8/5/2015)
cdesmarais 49673 (8/5/2015)
jckfla (8/5/2015)
I would hope data professionals would know the difference between anecdote and data, but reality always disappoints. In fact the percentage of women in the field has dropped dramatically since the 70's and 80's.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding
...
In a study Google released last month, the company surveyed about 1,600 men and women. It showed that girls aren't really taught what computer science actually means, and are half as likely to be encouraged to study it. The words females unassociated with computer science used to describe it were "boring," "technology," and "difficult."
...
Much of this has to do with exposure to computer science before college and during college.
...
Who could work more to spark young women's interest in computer programming; would that be: public school teachers, parents, celebrities or members of the media?
Personally I would cheer on all of the above. But we as IT professionals can start by trying to listen when women tell us why they left/didn't start in the field. Especially since we don't just have a problem with women in the education pipeline, we also tend to lose them even after they graduate.
August 6, 2015 at 3:07 am
cdesmarais 49673 (8/5/2015)
Eric M Russell (8/5/2015)
cdesmarais 49673 (8/5/2015)
jckfla (8/5/2015)
I would hope data professionals would know the difference between anecdote and data, but reality always disappoints. In fact the percentage of women in the field has dropped dramatically since the 70's and 80's.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding
...
In a study Google released last month, the company surveyed about 1,600 men and women. It showed that girls aren't really taught what computer science actually means, and are half as likely to be encouraged to study it. The words females unassociated with computer science used to describe it were "boring," "technology," and "difficult."
...
Much of this has to do with exposure to computer science before college and during college.
...
Who could work more to spark young women's interest in computer programming; would that be: public school teachers, parents, celebrities or members of the media?
Personally I would cheer on all of the above. But we as IT professionals can start by trying to listen when women tell us why they left/didn't start in the field. Especially since we don't just have a problem with women in the education pipeline, we also tend to lose them even after they graduate.
As a kid, I always really wanted to work in IT - specifically, programming. I started teaching myself at a young age, but when I turned about 12 or 13 I realised how much sexism there was surrounding women and the use of computers. Parents and teachers were always very encouraging, however it was the media stereotypes (and cartoons like the above) and the attitudes of other male 'geeks' I knew that put me off. I happened to fall into this career anyway, which is very fortunate for me.
Now, as I've grown up other peoples attitudes haven't affected me as much. On the whole, I think men in IT want a level playing field and just want the best people for the job. However, the stereotypes are still rampant in the media and you do still get the very pathetic male who thinks his gender makes him superior (but he is a minority).
I think some of these stereotypes do hold true in the workplace - one example, out of 6 interviews I've had since 2010, my gender was mentioned in 5 of those. They mention that I'm female, and that it's surprising I applied for the job, and then ask me to explain why I'm interested in IT. I don't think it's a test, I think they're trying to be friendly - but why is my gender being mentioned in interviews? Who cares, as long as I'm good at the job and want to be there?
From what I hear, kids are being taught programming from a young age in school now. I'm hoping that will help to encourage young women to follow the career path they desire.
Oh - and it's a shame that Janet above has explained her experiences of inequality and someone has immediately dismissed it because "women work in IT now!", instead of asking her more and attempting to understand her experiences of inequality in the workplace. As you say, we need to listen to each other. For the record, I also found the cartoon offensive. But I'm sure that will be dismissed as "trolling".
ETA: Also I did a bit of (really untalented) part-time modelling so myself and my friends have made several similar jokes in the past - it's really not hard to do it without being sexist.
August 6, 2015 at 6:39 am
cdesmarais 49673 (8/5/2015)
Eric M Russell (8/5/2015)
cdesmarais 49673 (8/5/2015)
jckfla (8/5/2015)
I would hope data professionals would know the difference between anecdote and data, but reality always disappoints. In fact the percentage of women in the field has dropped dramatically since the 70's and 80's.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding
...
In a study Google released last month, the company surveyed about 1,600 men and women. It showed that girls aren't really taught what computer science actually means, and are half as likely to be encouraged to study it. The words females unassociated with computer science used to describe it were "boring," "technology," and "difficult."
...
Much of this has to do with exposure to computer science before college and during college.
...
Who could work more to spark young women's interest in computer programming; would that be: public school teachers, parents, celebrities or members of the media?
Personally I would cheer on all of the above. But we as IT professionals can start by trying to listen when women tell us why they left/didn't start in the field. Especially since we don't just have a problem with women in the education pipeline, we also tend to lose them even after they graduate.
So tell us here and now; what is it that discourages women from pursuing a career in IT ?
It's obvious what coporate HR, school teachers, and editorial cartoonists can do to help. But, specifically what can actual rank and file programmers and database administrators do or stop doing on the job to help?
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
August 6, 2015 at 7:04 am
I did not say that it exists "everywhere". You're the only who said that. Perhaps you, while you worked in those "dozens" of shops, viewed the workplace with a strictly male lens and actually have no idea what women in those shops were going through. You were certainly quick to dismiss what I said. Makes me wonder if you dismissed your female coworkers just as quickly.
August 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
janet.stockton-taylor (8/6/2015)
I did not say that it exists "everywhere". You're the only who said that. Perhaps you, while you worked in those "dozens" of shops, viewed the workplace with a strictly male lens and actually have no idea what women in those shops were going through. You were certainly quick to dismiss what I said. Makes me wonder if you dismissed your female coworkers just as quickly.
Indeed. It's easy to say "inequality doesn't exist here" when they're not the one experiencing it.
August 6, 2015 at 7:43 am
XYoung (8/6/2015)
janet.stockton-taylor (8/6/2015)
I did not say that it exists "everywhere". You're the only who said that. Perhaps you, while you worked in those "dozens" of shops, viewed the workplace with a strictly male lens and actually have no idea what women in those shops were going through. You were certainly quick to dismiss what I said. Makes me wonder if you dismissed your female coworkers just as quickly.Indeed. It's easy to say "inequality doesn't exist here" when they're not the one experiencing it.
It's easier to make folks see things when we start talking about specifics instead of generalities.
Things like pay gaps are documented, but that has more to do with HR and can be seen across most industries, not specific to IT. I can see how many IT shops would be unaccomodating when it comes to work hours and maternity leave, but again that's across the work spectrum, and IT is probably more accomodating than many other industries like manufactoring, retail, or food.
So, what are some common examples of inequality that women in IT experience on the job? I'm talking about things that would be particular to IT itself.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
August 6, 2015 at 7:49 am
Eric M Russell (8/6/2015)
XYoung (8/6/2015)
janet.stockton-taylor (8/6/2015)
I did not say that it exists "everywhere". You're the only who said that. Perhaps you, while you worked in those "dozens" of shops, viewed the workplace with a strictly male lens and actually have no idea what women in those shops were going through. You were certainly quick to dismiss what I said. Makes me wonder if you dismissed your female coworkers just as quickly.Indeed. It's easy to say "inequality doesn't exist here" when they're not the one experiencing it.
It's easier to make folks see things when we start talking about specifics instead of generalities.
Things like pay gaps are documented, but that has more to do with HR and can be seen across most industries, not specific to IT. I can see how many IT shops would be unaccomodating when it comes to work hours and maternity leave, but again that's across the work spectrum, and IT is probably more accomodating than many other industries like manufactoring, retail, or food.
So, what are some common examples of inequality that women in IT experience on the job? I'm talking about things that would be particular to IT itself.
Sorry Eric - I did see your previous post. It's a very useful/helpful question and I want to wait until I have the time it deserves before I respond with my thoughts 🙂
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 46 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply