January 18, 2012 at 8:21 am
GSquared (1/18/2012)
But I do think that would move the business closer to an agglomeration of individual contractors doing related work, instead of an employer-employee relationship.
I think we're close now 🙁
January 18, 2012 at 8:22 am
Toby Harman (1/18/2012)
And yes, development licenses for some software are expensive.Try adding up Visual Studio, Altova XML Spy and Embarcadero ER-Studio to name 3 of the tools I routinely use.
There are a couple things at work here. One is that the licenses are very expensive because it's almost always the company that buys.
Also, what if you could rent the software instead?
Note that if you've priced chef's knives, mechanic's tools, etc., they are very expensive as well.
January 18, 2012 at 8:24 am
milzs (1/18/2012)
I have seven development PCs sitting here at my desk, including a "souped-up" one that cost over $5K. Add in a 21" monitor, a ScanSnap scanner, and a Cybex Avocent 8-port KVM switch and my hardware costs are pretty high. Each box also has a suite of software on it. I could never afford to provide all that. This is a US government organization, so I don't think the original buy-your-own-stuff concept would ever apply, but just saying...
Again, an investment. You'd take this with you to the new job. Or bring it home.
You wouldn't buy all this on day one, you'd buy as you wanted, and needed. Or some every year. I was trying to get the point across that the company might give you $500 a year allowance for computer stuff, or reimbursement for things you'd keep. A few years, and that's not a bad payment for some hardware you might keep for a long time.
January 18, 2012 at 8:27 am
Jack Corbett (1/18/2012)
I have to agree with Gus' comments. I was required to have McAfee anti-performance installed which makes it about 3 times longer to boot. I wish I had actually benchmarked it so I'd have really #'s to complain with. I don't have an issue with requiring Anti-virus/anti-malware protection, but for goodness sake let me decide for my machine.Anyway, I'd love to get a stipend to purchase my own equipment for work. I'd probably get a better machine at a better price.
Some of this is alleviated with VMs. You could have your host machine, which wouldn't be allowed on the network, or protected, and only the work VM would be granted access.
January 18, 2012 at 8:28 am
SQLSimon (1/18/2012)
I certainly wouldn't be happy if I were expected to buy a laptop or similarfor work-purposes.
I can understand this, but is it fair? Lots of industries are required to provide their own tools or resources. Lots of people do it without complaint.
If you had to buy the hardware, but they have you a VM with the software you needed, what then?
January 18, 2012 at 8:40 am
Eric M Russell (1/18/2012)
However, in a corporate or government IT environment (100 - 10,000 employees) this is problematic, because help desk now has to support multiple operating systems. Also, it's more difficult to inforce security and software standards, or inventory what's on the laptop.
Not with VMs. Support isn't an issue, or more of an issue than it is now for laptops.
Plus without the expectation of support, more people might learn about their machines, or purchase the items they know how to use better.
January 18, 2012 at 9:21 am
In most professions, the "tools" do not become obsolete in two years. The screwdriver I made 25 years ago still works in every flathead screw in my house. The wrench (... sorry, "spanner" ...) I inherited from my Dad still works on all modern nuts.
Try that with any computer equipment, hardware or software.
January 18, 2012 at 9:30 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (1/18/2012)
SQLSimon (1/18/2012)
I certainly wouldn't be happy if I were expected to buy a laptop or similarfor work-purposes.
I can understand this, but is it fair? Lots of industries are required to provide their own tools or resources. Lots of people do it without complaint.
If you had to buy the hardware, but they have you a VM with the software you needed, what then?
I think it's fair, as I'm an employee, not a contractor. In return for lower pay than a contractor, I expect various benefits, such as paid holiday, sick pay, and all necessary equipment.
In my experience in IT in the UK, this is provided as standard, so even if you think it's unfair, it's expected. If I was expected to purchase my own laptop, etc. it should be made clear when the job offer is made.
January 18, 2012 at 9:35 am
fahey.jonathan (1/18/2012)
In most professions, the "tools" do not become obsolete in two years. The screwdriver I made 25 years ago still works in every flathead screw in my house. The wrench (... sorry, "spanner" ...) I inherited from my Dad still works on all modern nuts.Try that with any computer equipment, hardware or software.
And you can buy a starter toolkit for about $30 at a Home Depot or Target or Walmart or whatever. Cheap tools, won't last very long, but they'll get the job done on day 1 and can be upgraded incrementally.
Even shops where you bring your own tools don't expect you to bring a tablesaw with you. A toolbelt, hammer, pair of work gloves, OSAH-compliant boots and maybe even your own hardhat, yes, but not heavy/expensive items like tablesaws, lathes, et al.
And, as mentioned, a hammer doesn't usually need to be replaced every few years. Hammers used by Roman workmen, if taken care of for the past 2 millennia, will drive nails manufactured by modern Chinese factories. But just try to access a 5.25in floppy disk, or, worse, a Zip disk, that was made less than 20 years ago.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 18, 2012 at 9:36 am
fahey.jonathan (1/18/2012)
In most professions, the "tools" do not become obsolete in two years. The screwdriver I made 25 years ago still works in every flathead screw in my house. The wrench (... sorry, "spanner" ...) I inherited from my Dad still works on all modern nuts.Try that with any computer equipment, hardware or software.
As a developer, the only tools I need are SSMS and a connection to SQL Server; 3rd party tools or special hardware has never been essential to what I do. It's not something I would need to take with me to another job.
In the information technology industry, a professional's "tools" are really more his or her technical skills, business knowledge, and certifications; not so much the client side tech gadgets or software. When we get layed off or walk away from a job, no one need to "give us the sack", it's already in our heads.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
January 18, 2012 at 9:40 am
Eric M Russell (1/18/2012)
fahey.jonathan (1/18/2012)
In most professions, the "tools" do not become obsolete in two years. The screwdriver I made 25 years ago still works in every flathead screw in my house. The wrench (... sorry, "spanner" ...) I inherited from my Dad still works on all modern nuts.Try that with any computer equipment, hardware or software.
As a developer, the only tools I need are SSMS and a connection to SQL Server; 3rd party tools or special hardware has never been essential to what I do. It's not something I would need to take with me to another job.
In the information technology industry, a professional's "tools" are really more his or her technical skills, business knowledge, and certifications; not so much the client side tech gadgets or software. When we get layed off or walk away from a job, no one need to "give us the sack", it's already in our heads.
I think Steve is also including the hardware that SSMS runs on as part of the toolset. After all, SSMS without a computer, is just a bunch of reflective patterns on a mylar-coating on a plastic disk.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 18, 2012 at 9:46 am
GSquared (1/18/2012)
. . . After all, SSMS without a computer, is just a bunch of reflective patterns on a mylar-coating on a plastic disk.
No, it is a 25-characted combination you have to enter to activate the copy you downloaded for trial. 😉
January 18, 2012 at 9:50 am
I really like to keep my work and my personal tools separate.
I have a company laptop, they have specific limits on use and software, I use my own computer for my personal activities.
I have a company smartphone but I have my own phone as well. I don't like to mix them.
Interesting sidepoint: Charles Babbage' differential engine project got derailed for years because he had a falling out with his machinist, who took all his tools with him. Back then all the tools belonged to the tradesman, regardless of who bought them.
Nothing new under the sun.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
January 18, 2012 at 9:50 am
GSquared (1/18/2012)
Eric M Russell (1/18/2012)
fahey.jonathan (1/18/2012)
In most professions, the "tools" do not become obsolete in two years. The screwdriver I made 25 years ago still works in every flathead screw in my house. The wrench (... sorry, "spanner" ...) I inherited from my Dad still works on all modern nuts.Try that with any computer equipment, hardware or software.
As a developer, the only tools I need are SSMS and a connection to SQL Server; 3rd party tools or special hardware has never been essential to what I do. It's not something I would need to take with me to another job.
In the information technology industry, a professional's "tools" are really more his or her technical skills, business knowledge, and certifications; not so much the client side tech gadgets or software. When we get layed off or walk away from a job, no one need to "give us the sack", it's already in our heads.
I think Steve is also including the hardware that SSMS runs on as part of the toolset. After all, SSMS without a computer, is just a bunch of reflective patterns on a mylar-coating on a plastic disk.
If a new hire, wether it's a developer or a carpenter, shows up at the job site without their hardware, they can always borrow from somone else. I think most corporations have empty cubicles and idle workstations these days. It's the toolset inside our head that the employer is most interested in.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
January 18, 2012 at 9:51 am
Revenant (1/18/2012)
GSquared (1/18/2012)
. . . After all, SSMS without a computer, is just a bunch of reflective patterns on a mylar-coating on a plastic disk.No, it is a 25-characted combination you have to enter to activate the copy you downloaded for trial. 😉
You downloaded it without a computer??? Your "whistle like a modem" skill must be pretty slick. 😀
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 52 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply