January 10, 2011 at 10:12 am
Since when is being educated a deficit? My writing is college level. I have a son who is in 5th grade whose lexile score is in the 1200's. Yet HR managers feel 5th grade level (Lexile 500-600) is acceptable?
I don't know whether to be glad or sad that this experience is not unique to me.
In my case, the HR manager was just as disturbed as I was by the problem. But if that's the way it is... well, I don't know how to deal with it.[/quote]
We all KNOW how to deal with it, but refuse to. The US education system sucks. We need to end tenure for teachers, get rid of the teacher's unions, require proof of capabilities of teachers, stop teaching to the lowest denominator, and start rewarding competent students instead of punishing them.
I know of quite a few students who have been yelled at by their teachers for reading ahead of the class. Others get yelled at for day dreaming - which they do because the teacher is explaining how to read a Dr Seus book in a high school class!
Of course this discussion leads to a political one about who to vote for to fix it, which leads to yelling and screaming and gnashing of teeth. Let's just skip that, shall we?
Dave
January 10, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Hmmm. Once again, it depends. No, really! Having good writing skills and good reading skills only help if that is the way your manager (his/her manager, CEO, HR, company, client, etc.) communicates. You may need to have good verbal skills, good listening skills and a good memory too.
No point in complaining about which skill set is lacking. Your just talking to yourself. 😛
We're DBA's: Do Basically Anything
January 10, 2011 at 12:38 pm
GWAk (1/10/2011)
Allow me to turn this around just a bit...If your ability to communicate via the written word is not the problem, but rather, the ability to communicate effectively, face-to-face, and particularly under difficult circumstances, what recourse is there for someone who doesn't necessarily 'think on his feet' as well as the more successful types? An example would be dealing with an angry customer having a 'database down, server down' condition in a high-transaction-rate environment with multiple dependencies. Is there an organization that provides guidance in this area? One thing I have learned is that the industry 'big boys' feel like it's a have/have-not quality and won't bother with you, your IT skillset notwithstanding, if you don't have the requisite 'hostage negotiation skills'.
There are practical skills one can develop in this regard. The best training program I can recommend for communication skills is called the "Success Through Communication Course", and it's offered through a series of "Life Improvement Centers" that are in many (maybe even most) major cities in the US and many other areas, operated by Scientology organizations.
One of the training drills consists of simply being able to quietly sit and face a person who is ranting and raving at you, without you getting flustered or upset or losing your cool in any of a wide variety of other ways. After that, you gradiently add in other skills, like doing this while getting a question answered, or while getting a point across. (The fun part is you get to also play the person doing the ranting and raving whilst another tries to do the sit quietly part. It can be cathartic, and quite entertaining.)
You'd be surprised by the number of people who can't even do the earlier piece, which is just comfortable sit and face another person without compulsively chatting, laughing, twitching nervously, et al, much less communicate while under pressure.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 10, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Long ago I heard a similar comment that newspaper articles are aimed at an eighth grade level. On any given day I can usually find a newspaper clipping with confusing, ambiguous, or otherwise imprecise prose: my theory is that writing at a simplified level just gives educated readers a fighting chance of comprehending what the writer meant!
So in my own writing (most recently on Simple-Talk.com and DevX.com) I do not focus on writing for the lowest common denominator; rather, I focus on honing my delivery so that it comes across as clearly, cleanly, and concisely as possible. Clarity is an important member of this triumvirate--brevity does not imply verbosity (as in the lengthy manual syndrome mentioned by jay holovacs).
I feel compelled to mention the canonical quote on the subject, variously attributed to Ernest Hemingway, Mario Puzo, and others: The secret to writing is rewriting. Aficionados of the classic Elements of Style by Strunk and White are familiar with their advocacy of being parsimonious with words that can be summed up as: Eliminate the excess! If you can rewrite your 10-word sentence in 5 words, do it. Then have someone else read what you have written to point out all the verbosity and ambiguity you missed--then rewrite again!
In a nutshell: do not "dumb it down"; instead "clarify it up" !
P.S. Want to check how high you aim in your writing? Try this readability tester.
January 10, 2011 at 3:08 pm
I've discovered that when writing instructions for users, it doesn't matter how simple or complex they are. Over half of our users make no attempt to read it, they prefer a phone call where we walk them through it (a.k.a. do it for them).
January 10, 2011 at 6:17 pm
The biggest problem with communication in this industry that I see is that it should flow downhill and many times it just doesn'.t It gets dammed up somewhere along the way and the people that have to implement solutions are usually the last to know. I have tried to change this behavior in the past with certain people but the bottom line is you just can't force people to communicate with people if they just won't do it. for whatever reason. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 10, 2011 at 9:44 pm
You are correct steve. Writing skill helps one to become a good thinker and increase the memory retain capacity.
Eventually, Good writer live long in the readers heart. 🙂
January 11, 2011 at 3:34 am
Whilst I agree that large groups of today's society still have surprisingly low levels of literacy, the rules remain the same. Communication doesn't occur unless the recipient of the information understands what the sender intended to impart. For instance, a supremely literate person who mumbles could easily fail to communicate.
The problem isn't a matter of knowledge of language; it's a matter of targeting. It might be incredibly frustrating trying to write a document for an audience with a reading age of eleven, but if you want to communicate with them then that's exactly what you have to do; you're the one who wants to communicate, not them, so it's your problem, not theirs. You might prefer to communicate via email for all the audit trail benefits, but the audit trail is a secondary benefit, not the primary goal, so if verbal communication is preferred by the person you're communicating with then effectiveness trumps everything else (unless you really are just covering yourself, in which case we're not discussing communication any more).
The easiest people to communicate with are those with similar levels of literacy, intelligence and understanding to yourself; if they think similarly to you, any imprecision on your part will probably be interpreted correctly by them. Steve's suggestion of blogging - or the idea of writing articles - is valuable as an exercise in trying to communicate with people who're possibly very different to oneself, and that's when one's communication skills really develop. You could also try a similar tack using other communication media, such as finding opportunities to give a presentation or seeing if one of your sales force is prepared to give you some negotiation tips.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
January 11, 2011 at 5:58 am
michael sorens (1/10/2011)
P.S. Want to check how high you aim in your writing? Try this readability tester.
Having read the description of the Flesch Reading Ease on that webpage I've decided to ignore the site. Such a simple thing, but the description in plain words contradicts itself (the "algorithm" paragraph does not match the earlier description). Can't trust anything with that blatant an error in it! 😉
By the way, that webpage has a higher Gunning Fog Index, lower Flesch Readability, and higher Flesch-Kincaid Grade than http://www.sqlservercentral.com :w00t: :laugh:
Tom
January 11, 2011 at 11:00 am
michael sorens (1/10/2011)
Long ago I heard a similar comment that newspaper articles are aimed at an eighth grade level. On any given day I can usually find a newspaper clipping with confusing, ambiguous, or otherwise imprecise prose: my theory is that writing at a simplified level just gives educated readers a fighting chance of comprehending what the writer meant!So in my own writing (most recently on Simple-Talk.com and DevX.com) I do not focus on writing for the lowest common denominator; rather, I focus on honing my delivery so that it comes across as clearly, cleanly, and concisely as possible. Clarity is an important member of this triumvirate--brevity does not imply verbosity (as in the lengthy manual syndrome mentioned by jay holovacs).
I feel compelled to mention the canonical quote on the subject, variously attributed to Ernest Hemingway, Mario Puzo, and others: The secret to writing is rewriting. Aficionados of the classic Elements of Style by Strunk and White are familiar with their advocacy of being parsimonious with words that can be summed up as: Eliminate the excess! If you can rewrite your 10-word sentence in 5 words, do it. Then have someone else read what you have written to point out all the verbosity and ambiguity you missed--then rewrite again!
In a nutshell: do not "dumb it down"; instead "clarify it up" !
P.S. Want to check how high you aim in your writing? Try this readability tester.
I just tested my SSC articles in that, and they all came back with pretty much ideal scores. So I also tested the readability of a page created through a random word sequence generator. Also came back with very good scores, so long as I set the sentence and word length right. So, take the scores with a grain of salt. Or more than one grain.
I know that my writing style tends to be overly dry. Even my humor tends to fly past a large number of people, because of how dry it often is. (Not always, but usually.) I also tend towards over-precision. This kind of automated test won't detect that, but feedback from people does. So, that's what I rely on.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 11, 2011 at 12:37 pm
GSquared (1/11/2011)
I just tested my SSC articles in that, and they all came back with pretty much ideal scores. So I also tested the readability of a page created through a random word sequence generator. Also came back with very good scores, so long as I set the sentence and word length right. So, take the scores with a grain of salt. Or more than one grain.
Most assuredly! I guess I should have included some "legalese" indicating that "the views of that web site do not reflect the views of this author." 🙂 I just thought it was an interesting attempt to quantify readability so I passed it along. As with many such things, caveat emptor!
January 11, 2011 at 1:56 pm
michael sorens (1/11/2011)
GSquared (1/11/2011)
I just tested my SSC articles in that, and they all came back with pretty much ideal scores. So I also tested the readability of a page created through a random word sequence generator. Also came back with very good scores, so long as I set the sentence and word length right. So, take the scores with a grain of salt. Or more than one grain.
Most assuredly! I guess I should have included some "legalese" indicating that "the views of that web site do not reflect the views of this author." 🙂 I just thought it was an interesting attempt to quantify readability so I passed it along. As with many such things, caveat emptor!
FWIW, I use the readability statistics in Microsoft Word when composing manuals and training documents. It shows a variety of statistics, the Flesch Reading Ease score, and the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level. I find that I have the most success and the best feedback when I get a grade level between 6 and 8. If I end up lower than 6, people complain that I'm not using standard terminology or that I've oversimplified. If I end up higher than 8, people complain that I've made the instructions more difficult than the task itself. Right around grade 7 seems to be the sweet spot. (For those following along, the HR manager that said I should be aiming for grade 5 was quite pleased to hear that most staff actually found that inadequate to their needs.)
I used to have quite a bit of difficulty getting the grade level below 10, but I can now get about 7 fairly easily if I get focused early in the process. Getting below 10 can be very difficult for certain topics. For example, one of the operator manuals I wrote describes the equipment and techniques for testing a chemical solution (pH, temperature, conductivity, and concentration). Concentration testing is particularly difficult to describe because of the vocabulary (burette, parallax, meniscus, titration, chemical names). I deal with it by including good illustrations, photos, and definitions. Still, it's a delicate, precision operation that I think is best conducted with reference to the relevant technical terms so I'm of the opinion that people have to rise to the occasion. (BTW, this manual came out at 9.4 and was extremely well-received by all concerned.)
January 12, 2011 at 7:27 am
majorbloodnock (1/10/2011)
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, submitting an article to SSC is also an excellent means of testing out one's writing skills, but with the added bonus of feedback from a wide community. Well worth contemplating.
This is a very good point. It is good to test your writing skills and knowledge on a topic in a more public forum. This can help to quickly sharpen your skills at both communication and on the subject matter about which you are writing.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
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January 17, 2011 at 8:16 pm
ARGGGHHH!!!
Recently Amazon and B&N offered free ebooks from Kaplan. As I frequently am looking to improve my skills, and of course is always, well, free, I decided to download them. One of them is MBA Fundamentals Business Writing. Imagine my surprise when I find in chapter 3 that it instructs the reader to "target eighth grade"!
Huh? We are now instructing our MBA students to dumb down their writing? "That target generates language ...that nearly all business readers can easily ... understand."
So business in America is cutting jobs to remain competitive. They are cutting salaries. They are cutting education, time off, all kids of things.
Maybe business needs to consider hiring people who can read. I wonder if that would increase profits? Nah, they would have to pay them a fair salary instead!
I think I just lost my last remaining smidgeon of respect for business; I certainly did lose all remaining respect for education!
Dave
January 18, 2011 at 3:32 am
djackson 22568 (1/17/2011)
ARGGGHHH!!!Recently Amazon and B&N offered free ebooks from Kaplan. As I frequently am looking to improve my skills, and of course is always, well, free, I decided to download them. One of them is MBA Fundamentals Business Writing. Imagine my surprise when I find in chapter 3 that it instructs the reader to "target eighth grade"!
Huh? We are now instructing our MBA students to dumb down their writing? "That target generates language ...that nearly all business readers can easily ... understand."
So business in America is cutting jobs to remain competitive. They are cutting salaries. They are cutting education, time off, all kids of things.
Maybe business needs to consider hiring people who can read. I wonder if that would increase profits? Nah, they would have to pay them a fair salary instead!
I think I just lost my last remaining smidgeon of respect for business; I certainly did lose all remaining respect for education!
I can certainly understand your frustration, but I don't entirely agree with you.
I can think of a large number of very successful business men and women who started from very lowly roots; barrow boys on Petticoat Lane (a street market in London, for those of you not familiar with it), for instance. Intelligence and business acumen are not the same thing, and even intelligence comes in different flavours. Should businesses be hiring intelligent people? No. Businesses should be hiring people who can do their jobs well. That's not the same thing.
Business writing simply follows on from that. You identify the literacy level of your likely audience and write your communications to suit. To assume people high in the company should be given more eloquent emails than those lower down is presumptious, and is likely to end up with a key decision maker failing to understand what you have to say.
Just because you're educated to understand English (or any language) to a high level doesn't mean you are obliged to always use it at that level; my car can do 130 miles per hour, but I prefer not to keep it at that speed all the time......
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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