October 8, 2016 at 1:37 am
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Bingle is my Senior DBA
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
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SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 8, 2016 at 1:40 am
Answer the newbie/basic questions with links? then all you need is a standard suite of links you can reuse over and over again. And the poster will likely get a longer term resource from their posting.
I've started doing that at my work and it helps both parties. I get to avoid wasting my time answering questions on the basics, and the folks who ask get a better answer than they would otherwise (probably) get from me.
October 8, 2016 at 4:03 am
I don't know about for the net in general, but for this forum, maybe Steve could institute some sort of marking for people that know what they are talking about. Not just the existing ranking system of Grasshopper to SSCoach, but a "Trusted Responder" marking of some sort? People like you, Gail and a few others who can be relied upon to not give out false information, that would have a special color or some other such graphic marking, and possibly give such people control over other people's responses to a thread they are addressing, like the ability to delete a contribution that you know to be wrong or misleading, and maybe even lock a thread closed, as "Done, nothing more to discuss on this topic".
I don't know how much he can configure the software he uses to run this forum, but such a pool of people might help cut down some of the confusion that results from multiple opinions on a topic. Of course, you guys would have to be careful what you write in such cases, and make clear distinctions between your own personal preferences, experiences in odd situations and solid facts.
October 8, 2016 at 5:39 am
The question posed is a tough one. As a not very technical user (by choice) I find the SSC forums pretty "high quality". I usually find what I'm looking for, rather than asking, but that's me 😉
For myself, in my own field, I'm going to try and pick up the suggestions here and try and create "curated links" to standard answers and also take care to distinguish between "personal preferences, experiences (especially in odd situations) and solid facts".
Problems I notice on the answering side (not usually on SSC) are people being "over dogmatic" and not really distinguishing between "preferences" and "fact". One of the problems with IT is that sometimes fashions and sometimes the "right" answers change over time.
On the questioning side, I sometimes feel that the questioners are looking for a "quick fix". They seem to want a single, "right answer". Unfortunately, very often the answer has to be prefixed by "it depends...". If I was speaking to them in person, I would probably ask for a little more background like "what are you trying to achieve?" because sometimes they are trying to use inappropriate tools.
I had a recent experience (fortunately an eMail dialogue, rather than a forum discussion) where someone wanted help with loading some data. I asked them "Have you considered using BULK INSERT?" They hadn't, because they didn't know it existed. It solved their problem. It is very hard to ask sensible questions about things when you don't know what the options are.
Trouble is, most of us are Newbies in some areas even if we are experts in others. It's impossible to know everything but at least that makes it fun to keep on learning. 🙂
Tom Gillies LinkedIn Profilewww.DuhallowGreyGeek.com[/url]
October 8, 2016 at 7:27 am
Well, I would be against any kind of rating decision by anyone, Steve included. I prefer to make my own evaluations without the precondition of anyone else.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
October 8, 2016 at 7:36 am
You could implement a stackexchange type qa site, instead of or in addition to a forum. A qa site will restrict duplicate questions unlike forums.
October 8, 2016 at 1:32 pm
pdanes (10/8/2016)
I don't know about for the net in general, but for this forum, maybe Steve could institute some sort of marking for people that know what they are talking about. Not just the existing ranking system of Grasshopper to SSCoach, but a "Trusted Responder" marking of some sort? People like you, Gail and a few others who can be relied upon to not give out false information, that would have a special color or some other such graphic marking, and possibly give such people control over other people's responses to a thread they are addressing, like the ability to delete a contribution that you know to be wrong or misleading, and maybe even lock a thread closed, as "Done, nothing more to discuss on this topic".
Just some thoughts on that...
I've run across many a thread on other forums and blogs that are "closed" to further discussion (or sometimes to any discussion at all). Some of them are by well meaning, highly trusted people and yet, they are wrong for that thread. Because it's "closed" you now have a permanently mounted and possibly highly popular thread that has wrong (sometimes, seriously wrong) information in it that new and even some more seasoned people believe in and use and they don't even know what it's doing to their systems or their data.
Further...
1. There is no heavy hitter on this site or any blog or any forum that has not made a mistake and, yes, I do include myself in that.
2. As Grant stated in his article, some things that were true many years ago are no longer true.
3. Just because a heavy hitter (designate or otherwise) comes up with a solution doesn't mean that even a total newbie can't come up with a better idea.
4. Just as with all people, heavy hitters can spout off supposed "Best Practices" that actually aren't and have only enjoyed such a label because of similar incorrect beliefs.
One of the GREAT things about SQLServerCentral and the primary reason why I call it "home" is because anyone and everyone can express an opinion (without code to prove it, do so at your own risk 😉 ), demonstrate some code, try something new or old, learn stuff, and teach stuff. It's not like some other sites where you get moderator and "high points idiot" rubbish such as the following...
OP: I have a question.
DWEEB: Here's an answer.
HH: Here's a link to an article that says otherwise and shows a better way.
MODERATOR: Sorry. Post deleted. We only want answers here.
Leave SSC the way it is. It's the greatest SQL Server related site there is for good reasons.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 8, 2016 at 2:20 pm
kenambrose (10/8/2016)
Answer the newbie/basic questions with links? then all you need is a standard suite of links you can reuse over and over again. And the poster will likely get a longer term resource from their posting.I've started doing that at my work and it helps both parties. I get to avoid wasting my time answering questions on the basics, and the folks who ask get a better answer than they would otherwise (probably) get from me.
THIS! IMHO, is the way to go!
There is a growing problem in the world of IT and that's people who are being paid big bucks to do things that they can't and never will be able to do because other people keep providing them answers to basic questions that they should know as a part of their trade. The BEST thing for us to do is to help them find the methods to educate themselves so they can actually do the job they're being paid to do. If they elect to not learn their own trade even in the face of such informative links, then they need to suffer their own decision. To do otherwise is to perpetuate the problem of "learned helplessness" and we're doing a great disservice to the people asking the questions and to the companies they work for when we do such things, especially for the basics.
I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't help but providing answers on a silver platter for basic questions isn't helping. It would be far better to provide a link to (usually but not always) a Books Online article and, possibly, tell them where to look in the article for their answer. If we also provide what we did a search for in Yabigooglewho, we will teach people how to educate themselves and lord knows a lot of people need to start doing THAT! See the following links, just for starters...
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/it-hiring-is-broken-here-are-three-ways-to-fix-it/
As you've probably heard me say in the past, the industry, especially when it comes to the core of all the world's information (databases of one form or another) is in deep trouble. In more than the past decade, roughly 80% of the supposedly "Senior DBAs" with supposedly more than 10 years of experience don't know how to get the current date and time, don't know how to do a native backup or restore, and have little clue about even some of the basics of SQL Server. The supposed 5-10 year "Senior Developers" that I've interviewed are even worse because most of them can't even write code to write to 10 even using a WHILE loop never mind what happens if you encapsulate a column in the WHERE clause in a formula. And then there are those supposed "Tuning Experts" that say stupid things like "I've never worked on clustered servers so I've never had to use a Clustered Index". And, no... I couldn't make something that stupid up on a bet. That was an actual answer from someone that claimed more than a decade of "Performance Tuning complex stored procedures" on their resume.
The bottom line is that it's not just the "newbies". People that don't actually give a hoot about their trade and continue to survive only because of the kindness of others permeate all levels of this industry. Yes, we need to help all of them but let's make sure that it's the right kind of help. Let's not perpetuate "learned helplessness" or (dare I say it) laziness of people with the 9-to-5 syndrome that have no outside interest in getting better at what they're supposed to be doing.
The old parable is "Give a man a fish, he eats for the day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime". Uh huh... and if his rod breaks or he snarls his line in a closed-face reel or runs out of bait (yeah... cut off a finger and use that :sick:), what then?
Let's teach people to build things and think on their own... gently but surely. If they refuse, move on. There are other people that will welcome the knowledge.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 9, 2016 at 2:12 am
skeleton567 (10/8/2016)
Well, I would be against any kind of rating decision by anyone, Steve included. I prefer to make my own evaluations without the precondition of anyone else.
You, and everyone contributing to these forums is ALREADY being evaluated. Look under your name.
October 9, 2016 at 7:33 am
Jeff Moden (10/8/2016)
THIS! IMHO, is the way to go!There is a growing problem in the world of IT and that's people who are being paid big bucks to do things that they can't and never will be able to do because other people keep providing them answers to basic questions that they should know as a part of their trade. The BEST thing for us to do is to help them find the methods to educate themselves ... To do otherwise is to perpetuate the problem of "learned helplessness" and we're doing a great disservice to the people asking the questions ...
... If we also provide what we did a search for in Yabigooglewho, we will teach people how to educate themselves and lord knows a lot of people need to start doing THAT! ...
As you've probably heard me say in the past, the industry, especially when it comes to the core of all the world's information (databases of one form or another) is in deep trouble. ...
The bottom line is that it's not just the "newbies".
...
Let's teach people to build things and think on their own... gently but surely. If they refuse, move on. There are other people that will welcome the knowledge.
There's a lot of sense in that and it matches my experiences. I hadn't thought of "learned helplessness" in this context, but it's an appropriate description. I don't think the problem is confined to IT but is is certainly bad in IT. Perhaps it is because, by their very nature, computer systems rely on smoke-and-mirrors and that to understand them you have to view the components as black boxes. I know I don't REALLY understand what even the simplest database manager REALLY does (deep down inside).
The internet provides marvellous resources and "Yabigooglewho" (I love it! I'm stealing that! 😉 ) gives anyone access to them. BUT the second thing everyone has to learn (after finding that stuff is there at all) is to be critical of what they find. Not all the answers to any given question are right - and no amount of classification or grading will fix that (though it may help some of the time). People have to learn to use their own judgement and live with the consequences.
A deep problem, especially for IT, is that "empty vessels make the most noise" and, although I don't claim to be particularly "wise", I know that with advancing years I have become less certain about things. That can be a problem when dealing with the ignorant and especially the wilfully ignorant. We can and should try and educate people with what we think is correct when we can. Some will listen, and some will not. Where we can, providing "how we found it" and "links" (references) seem like good ways of doing this. BTW, that sounds awfully like good practice for academic writing too! 😉
The problem for IT is that real "good practice" is being lost simply because it is unfashionable. The risk is that, if the charlatans and the "I'll ask on the internet" merchants take over completely then what good practice there is will be reduced to "magic incantations" in procedures, and then eventually be lost altogether. 🙁
Tom Gillies LinkedIn Profilewww.DuhallowGreyGeek.com[/url]
October 9, 2016 at 1:05 pm
Another thing that might help is to go back to the articles and add more keywords. I have occasionally had trouble finding something on this site because I didn't know the proper terminology.
October 9, 2016 at 4:43 pm
Having been a few laps around the sun, 'learned helplessness' is a very apt description of the sort on Mental apathy I come across all the time. I'm a firm adherent to the principals contained in "Give the man a fish - feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and where (my little addition) - feed him for a lifetime." There is nothing like getting your hands dirty, breaking stuff, fixing it and learning from the experience. I'm more than happy to provide advice but, this always should come with a the common caveat - 'It Depends' and while sometimes the pressure of work and getting things fixed can make the best of us weak at the knees - I refuse to answer the obvious 'homework' questions.
:w00t:
October 9, 2016 at 9:22 pm
MalD (10/9/2016)
I'm a firm adherent to the principals contained in "Give the man a fish - feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and where (my little addition) - feed him for a lifetime." There is nothing like getting your hands dirty, breaking stuff, fixing it and learning from the experience.:w00t:
Well, almost. I think the proper rendering is not 'feed him for a lifetime', but more like 'he will feed himself for a lifetime'. To my thinking, that is a very important distinction. We already have far to many people we are feeding for a lifetime. Over my IT career of some forty-two years I was privileged to have had the opportunity to mentor and 'break in' a number of younger folks just beginning their careers in various aspects of Information Technology, and can proudly say that none of them are being fed for a lifetime. I was able to contribute to the development of a number of those who today are feeding themselves and others in successful and rewarding careers of their own.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
October 10, 2016 at 1:05 am
The web is surely the number one place for help and research these days?
Even if built-in SQL Server help is available, I still prefer to go to Microsoft’s website to check out syntax, code samples, tips and references.
These sites will always have more up to date information.
But these ‘basic’ websites are not always suitable for all scenarios and you definitely need the help of other professionals and in-depth articles.
This is why we all invest time and effort to subscribe and follow websites like this one. (And thanks to the contributors for their time and effort!)
Higher education institutions should teach students the basic concepts of database design, implementation and programming.
I think it is pointless to learn all the little quirks and syntax rules of a subject – that is things you pick up and learn during your career.
Yes, you can go down a rabbit hole when you start researching things on the Internet, but over time you learn which websites and authors to trust.
I do keep my own personal library of articles, scripts, tips and tricks that I use for easy reference.
October 10, 2016 at 1:47 am
This is slightly off topic but I have some observations from the Big Data world.
Which source of information do you trust? Certain technologies are too new for there to be much expertise around and some of the stuff posted turns out to be completely wrong.
Information in articles can be poorly structured. What worked fine on version 0.7 won't even run on version 0.9. Any articles should state clearly the versions of all software used and basic hardware configuration. I want to know if I need a 16 core box to run something, not bash my head against an 8 core brick wall.
A picture paints a thousand words. People digest information in different ways. Sometimes a picture works well, sometimes its prose.
Information goes out of date. Leaving it around causes confusion. The fact that we used to have to work with 2K pages in SQL6.5 is of no interest to a SQL2016 DBA.
Sometimes old arguments contain wisdom that is still applicable today. Maybe three old articles could be amalgamated into one retaining the relevant information and discarding the long dead.
SQLServerCentral has long been my "go to" site. There seems to be a scarcity of equivalents for other DB platforms. Steve and Red Gate have done well to continue to foster the community that has evolved over the passed couple of decades.
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