May 13, 2014 at 6:38 am
I've a Computer Science degree. I did some practical stuff, but that really didn't transfer well to the business world. The school also had a lot of theory - algorithms, operating systems, low-level computing.
The one class that came closest to the real world was the seminar project, a single semester course where you developed and then presented a project. There are a few changes that I would suggest for this course: 1. Make the course longer. Two semesters at a minimum. So far I haven't been on any short projects. 2. Don't let the student select the topic. You don't get to define the requirements in the real world, why should you do it in school. 3. The professor should introduce, requirement changes, scope creep, etc. All the things that developers see during a project that aren't really mentioned in school.
May 13, 2014 at 6:54 am
Gary Varga (5/13/2014)
PS Koen rocks!!!
We We! 😛
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Livin' down on the cube farm. Left, left, then a right.
May 13, 2014 at 6:58 am
I earned a degree in math and very slowly grew my career into being the DBA I am today. I started out programming Excel using VBA, then moved into Access and simple .Net apps. I was very fortunate to have a ton of downtime in my first job (although I hated it for the long days), and taught myself a great deal doing tutorials and training during work. From this experience I can say that working on real-world problems is the best way for me to learn. I think that if an individual has the correct motivation (i.e. to be a master at his/her craft), he/she will take the time to learn the necessary intricacies.
I learned the most early in my career by helping people with real problems, mainly at ExcelForum.com.
Be still, and know that I am God - Psalm 46:10
May 13, 2014 at 6:59 am
I have been out of college for one year and I have found that I did not retain much of what I learned in regards to IT. I was in my mid 30's and found myself at a cross roads in my life and needed to learn a new trade. I was in construction all of my life however I did have a bachelors in Theology. I did not know what I wanted to do because construction was the only trade I have learned. After owning my own business for several years it was disappointing that I had to start all over. I talked to a friend of mine that was in IT and he was a release engineer for a software company. He asked me if I had thought about IT at all. I told him no but the only thing about computers I did like was excel spreadsheets. He told me that I may like working with databases and for me to do some research on my own and see if that was something I may be interested in. I went home and googled databases. Keep in mind I have never seen a database or knew that there was a such thing as SQL, Oracle or DB2 out there. I begin to do some googling and found a site that explained what databases where and the concept behind it. Through this site I learned about SQL and how to write a simple select statement. I then downloaded the free edition of SQL server on my laptop and immediately fell in love with SQL. I went to a two year online school and got my second degree in database development. In those two years I did learn a very high over view of what information technology was but it was on the job training where I learned all of my skill sets I have today. I am currently a DBA and would not dare say that it was due to anything that I learned in college. The only thing my degree gave me was an open door as many companies today want you to have that piece of paper to say that you have some kind of education. I am not downing any colleges because I am not that kind of person. If I had any suggestions to college students it would be to find your passion and stick with it. If you dont know how to do something there is tons of information on the internet and learn quickly to "Adapt and overcome" because failure is not an option.
Good luck to you all!!!!
May 13, 2014 at 7:03 am
I think you need both. I was classically trained, if there is such a thing in computer science, with theory and all. I work with too many "home grown" developers that lack good developmental practices. There is a reason they are called structured languages. I think Theory and practice should be interweaved throughout the educational process.
<><
Livin' down on the cube farm. Left, left, then a right.
May 13, 2014 at 7:08 am
Tobar (5/13/2014)
I think you need both. I was classically trained, if there is such a thing in computer science, with theory and all. I work with too many "home grown" developers that lack good developmental practices. There is a reason they are called structured languages. I think Theory and practice should be interweaved throughout the educational process.
You can go to school and still have bad development practices. 😀
I agree with you though. Theory and practice need to be taught together. It's great to know that to accomplish x, y, and z, you should use this pattern. But its better to know why your using that pattern because then you can also think about when to break those patterns.
May 13, 2014 at 7:21 am
I still remember sitting in the main 2nd year comp sci course on the opening day, listening to the professor explain how the comp sci program was about preparing students for further (graduate level) study in computers and was not about training for jobs.
My university has since adapted somewhat, introducing software engineering programs which are somewhat more practical. But it did really reinforce for me the simple truth that university is in no way about job training.
It is a real shame that successive generations have had it pushed on them that they need degree to get "good jobs", to the point where you now need a graduate degree to stand out to employers the way a person with a bachelors stood out in the 80s. The bachelor degree is now the minimum qualification.
I think it has gotten to the point where if people look at a resume that does not include college, they immediately think this was a student who was not bright enough to be able to go. I'd like to see that bias disappear. For the software industry, I'd like to see more students coming into the workforce right out of high school.
Right now there are several COOP and internship programs where a student gets a degree/diploma, and has a period of work in between terms. I'd like to see that dynamic reversed. Get them into the workforce, and intersperse periods of training (both theoretical and practical).
To get to that point, you'd need the industry giants leading the way. You need microsoft and google and facebook recruiting right out of high schools, so that you get top students who are foregoing university, and helping to remove the stigma.
And I'm not saying university doesn't have a place. But it should return to being about academics. And a student with a degree in comp sci should be viewed by industry much like a student with a non technical degree or even a high school student ... as an entry level worker needing practical technical training and certification.
Its great to go to university to find what interests you (if you can afford it). It is great to go there for personal development (if you can afford it), or to broaden your horizons (if you can afford it). But there are very few jobs that it should be a prerequisite for. We are generating an army of graduates who have mountains of student debt and are still in no way prepared for the workforce.
Not that I think any of that will happen. The bias is too strong, and college is an industry unto itself. Not to mention, the jobs market is still pretty soft, making it tough for any sort of entry level person to find work.
May 13, 2014 at 7:43 am
Nevyn (5/13/2014)
I still remember sitting in the main 2nd year comp sci course on the opening day, listening to the professor explain how the comp sci program was about preparing students for further (graduate level) study in computers and was not about training for jobs.My university has since adapted somewhat, introducing software engineering programs which are somewhat more practical. But it did really reinforce for me the simple truth that university is in no way about job training.
It is a real shame that successive generations have had it pushed on them that they need degree to get "good jobs", to the point where you now need a graduate degree to stand out to employers the way a person with a bachelors stood out in the 80s. The bachelor degree is now the minimum qualification.
I think it has gotten to the point where if people look at a resume that does not include college, they immediately think this was a student who was not bright enough to be able to go. I'd like to see that bias disappear. For the software industry, I'd like to see more students coming into the workforce right out of high school.
Right now there are several COOP and internship programs where a student gets a degree/diploma, and has a period of work in between terms. I'd like to see that dynamic reversed. Get them into the workforce, and intersperse periods of training (both theoretical and practical).
To get to that point, you'd need the industry giants leading the way. You need microsoft and google and facebook recruiting right out of high schools, so that you get top students who are foregoing university, and helping to remove the stigma.
And I'm not saying university doesn't have a place. But it should return to being about academics. And a student with a degree in comp sci should be viewed by industry much like a student with a non technical degree or even a high school student ... as an entry level worker needing practical technical training and certification.
Its great to go to university to find what interests you (if you can afford it). It is great to go there for personal development (if you can afford it), or to broaden your horizons (if you can afford it). But there are very few jobs that it should be a prerequisite for. We are generating an army of graduates who have mountains of student debt and are still in no way prepared for the workforce.
Not that I think any of that will happen. The bias is too strong, and college is an industry unto itself. Not to mention, the jobs market is still pretty soft, making it tough for any sort of entry level person to find work.
I did a Higher National Diploma (UK post High School, not quite University qualification) based upon its practical bias and was told it was highly (no pun intended) regarded. Absolute rubbish. I now have two Bachelor degrees and one Masters (all in the computing arena). I feel only now that my qualifications will see me through my career. Give it a decade and it wouldn't surprise me if doctorates were required to stand out from the crowd.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
May 13, 2014 at 7:48 am
Gary Varga (5/13/2014)
Give it a decade and it wouldn't surprise me if doctorates were required to stand out from the crowd.
I keep toying with the idea of a doctorate, but right now it just looks like a ton of work with little or no benefit to me.
May 13, 2014 at 8:18 am
Gary Varga (5/13/2014)
I think that the problem is twofold:1) Graduates with Computer Science degrees have little understanding of applying what they have been taught in the real world.
2) Non-Computer Science graduates (both non-graduates and graduates of non-computing degrees) never learn the theory.
... (Nice comments removed for brevity.) ...
PS Koen rocks!!!
When I taught DB theory at the University of Illinois, I got admonished by a fellow professor for being too practical in my approach to the material. (I had the students do a DB design and front-end application project applying the principles we learned along the way during the semester - and I let them use Access!! Horrors!) I used Chris Date's theory book, and tested them on the material therein. However, I spent most of the lectures adding "real-world" examples of things to do and not do.
I even put them in teams to have them get used to working with other people to get something done. And I picked the teams. They complained about not being able to pick their own teams. I pointed out that they might as well get used to it, as they were going to be working on a lot of teams with people they didn't pick, and frequently wouldn't even like!! Welcome to the world outside university.
At any rate, I think people DO need to learn the theory. You won't use it every day. But, it provides a good foundation for everything else you need. And then you need to get an immediate opportunity to use that theory in a non-trivial project, so you can see why the theory is important, as well as what happens (good and bad) when you deviate from the theory.
For the more promising students, I gave them the opportunity to do an actual application for a real customer. I found a guy that had 5 Pizza Hut restaurants that needed payroll and tax software. Some of the students worked on building that, and the rest had me for a customer - I even was vague on the requirements and changed them a bit towards the end - sound familiar?. The best of breed of the Pizza Hut applications got $500 from the owner and the owner got software he would not have been able to afford had he paid full price for it.
[font="Verdana"]Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.[/font]
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May 13, 2014 at 8:22 am
Thomas Abraham (5/13/2014)
I even put them in teams to have them get used to working with other people to get something done. And I picked the teams. They complained about not being able to pick their own teams. I pointed out that they might as well get used to it, as they were going to be working on a lot of teams with people they didn't pick, and frequently wouldn't even like!! Welcome to the world outside university.At any rate, I think people DO need to learn the theory. You won't use it every day. But, it provides a good foundation for everything else you need. And then you need to get an immediate opportunity to use that theory in a non-trivial project, so you can see why the theory is important, as well as what happens (good and bad) when you deviate from the theory.
For the more promising students, I gave them the opportunity to do an actual application for a real customer. I found a guy that had 5 Pizza Hut restaurants that needed payroll and tax software. Some of the students worked on building that, and the rest had me for a customer - I even was vague on the requirements and changed them a bit towards the end - sound familiar?. The best of breed of the Pizza Hut applications got $500 from the owner and the owner got software he would not have been able to afford had he paid full price for it.
This is exactly the type of course I wish I had when I was in school. It sounds like exactly the type of course that needs to be part of the curriculum for students that intend to get a job in the industry.
May 13, 2014 at 8:40 am
I agree with almost all of what Thomas Abraham says except:
Thomas Abraham (5/13/2014)
...At any rate, I think people DO need to learn the theory. You won't use it every day...
You will use it each and every day. You might not recognise it though.
Knowledge leads to understanding. Understanding leads to insight.
[Edit: I put incite when I meant insight. Idiot.]
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
May 13, 2014 at 8:49 am
I did a Higher National Diploma (UK post High School, not quite University qualification) based upon its practical bias and was told it was highly (no pun intended) regarded. Absolute rubbish. I now have two Bachelor degrees and one Masters (all in the computing arena). I feel only now that my qualifications will see me through my career. Give it a decade and it wouldn't surprise me if doctorates were required to stand out from the crowd.
This is true in many other work areas aswell. My wife is a nurse. When she first qualified all she needed was a diploma, then she needed to get a degree to keep up a few years later. Now she is studying for a Masters, just to keep up and advance. The thinking is that in ten years a doctorate will be needed for the more specialist nursing jobs.
May 13, 2014 at 8:51 am
Gary Varga (5/13/2014)
I agree with almost all of what Thomas Abraham says except:Thomas Abraham (5/13/2014)
...At any rate, I think people DO need to learn the theory. You won't use it every day...You will use it each and every day. You might not recognise it though.
Knowledge leads to understanding. Understanding leads to insight.
[Edit: I put incite when I meant insight. Idiot.]
I stand corrected. I guess I should have said something more like, "You won't think you're using it every day." Thanks.
[font="Verdana"]Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.[/font]
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May 13, 2014 at 9:01 am
Thomas Abraham (5/13/2014)
Gary Varga (5/13/2014)
I agree with almost all of what Thomas Abraham says except:Thomas Abraham (5/13/2014)
...At any rate, I think people DO need to learn the theory. You won't use it every day...You will use it each and every day. You might not recognise it though.
Knowledge leads to understanding. Understanding leads to insight.
[Edit: I put incite when I meant insight. Idiot.]
I stand corrected. I guess I should have said something more like, "You won't think you're using it every day." Thanks.
And for clarity (not that anyone would have thought otherwise), I was calling myself an idiot :crazy:
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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