April 2, 2008 at 6:35 am
There is no doubt in my mind that experience and/or a MS certification would provide you with a more than adequate skill set to do a great job as a DBA. However anybody who thinks that a BS or MS degree is not worth the effort is nuts. The whole idea of getting the degree is to open doors to advancement in your career. Most jobs require a minimum of a BS to advance beyond your tech DBA. Most HR requirements also require a minimum of a BS just to get in the door. Resumes without a BS get put into the 'B' pile in most corporations. You need to protect yourself because you are competing against thousands of others for similar jobs.
Thanks,
JP BS, MBA
April 2, 2008 at 7:30 am
Make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I said what matters most is how you feel about it. If you really think it is holding you back or you really want the letters to tack on then great. But I don't use the ones I have because I don't really care what others think of me, I know I can do my job better than most individuals I deal with. It has to matter to you first and foremost because if it doesn't then your only thought will be how much you hate it and you won't finish. You have to be prepared for the commitment and never second guess yourself even if it cost. Lord knows I still owe for some things I took to advance my knowledge.
April 2, 2008 at 9:10 am
A rule of thumb when writing your resume is to include only the last 10 years of work experience. I would expect that a degree that is more than 10 years old might be helpful, but might suggest that you are either "old" or slightly out-of-date.
If I had finished my original college plans, I would have a BSEE from 1974 - lots has changed since then.
April 2, 2008 at 10:28 pm
WILLIAM MITCHELL (4/2/2008)
A rule of thumb when writing your resume is to include only the last 10 years of work experience. I would expect that a degree that is more than 10 years old might be helpful, but might suggest that you are either "old" or slightly out-of-date.If I had finished my original college plans, I would have a BSEE from 1974 - lots has changed since then.
You are right, a lot will change over the years. That is where continuing education comes in to play. In my opinion this does not have to be formal, school-based education, It can be self-paced, learn on your own as well. You could say that this is how you keep yourself relevant in your chosen career field. I learned BASIC, Fortran, COBOL, Pascal, Modula-2 in High School and college in the late 70's early 80's. How much of that is used today? I have to learn new languages, concepts, etc some how, and taking college courses isn't in the cards for that, so it is up to me to teach myself what I need to know. I have a ton of books that I use to help me do just that, and to keep myself current.
😎
April 3, 2008 at 7:01 am
I got my Bachelors Degree in my late teens early 20's because well that was what was expected of me. Having wealthy parents and going to college in the 70's certainly made it possible. That being said, if you can get your degree and you want to spend the time and money I would encourage you to begin the process. You may find the perfect job only to lose it because some manager won't look at anyone without a degree.
As for certification - I got a MCAD (circa 2005, 3 tests) barely squeaking by 2 out of the 3 tests. I admit, some of my areas of ignorance shocked some of my bosses. They still got me noticed, though. It cost me 20 grand, a student loan I will be paying out until I retire (well, I did go back to school at 50). With your experience you may be able to get certified the way a co-worker did - cramming at night after putting her young daughter to bed. And she aced all 3 tests. The tests run a over a hundred each ($125 in 2005).
April 3, 2008 at 7:07 am
Thank you everyone! I love the responses.
-- Cory
April 3, 2008 at 1:23 pm
"Don't hate the players, hate the game."
Blame corporate HR. They call the shots. All they know is some qualifications and post a job on a website with no understanding of the underlying skill set required to perform the work.
In the end, all you can hope to do is to keep the individuals who are not qualified out of your organization via good interview techniques.
Until the Information Technology field has an established organization with standards like lawyers, doctors, and engineers, charlatans will always be there hocking skills which do not exist on their resumes.
Regardless of the degree chosen, hopefully the experience taught the recipient the following skills
-- Critical Thinking
-- Problem Solving
-- Bureaucracy skills (University paperwork)
-- Social Networking
Otherwise I believe the University experience would not be as rich if the individual did not walk away with this type of education.
April 3, 2008 at 1:32 pm
James Greaves (4/3/2008)
Until the Information Technology field has an established organization with standards like lawyers, doctors, and engineers, charlatans will always be there hocking skills which do not exist on their resumes.
And we have seen that even these fields with their established standards don't always produce what you'd expect based on the qualification. We make jokes or here stories about incompetent lawyers and doctors all the time.
Therefore, every asset we have that can get us noticed will help with getting the job interview. Once we get it, our skills and knowledge will hopefully shine through.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
April 3, 2008 at 2:42 pm
And we have seen that even these fields with their established standards don't always produce what you'd expect based on the qualification. We make jokes or here stories about incompetent lawyers and doctors all the time.
A lawyer can be disbarred, a doctor and engineer can lose his license to practice, and done by the governing board of state/province. When one of these professionals is not competent to practice their craft, they lose their ability to do, unlike an IT worker, who can carry on being incompetent.
April 3, 2008 at 3:05 pm
In practice, it is quite rare for even the most incompetent doctor, lawyer, or engineer to lose their license, unless they commit a crime. Their professional standards serve chiefly as entry barriers to help keep their fees high.
Probably the most important regulatory bodies for these professions are insurance companies that can put them out of business by refusing to insure them.
April 3, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Seggerman (4/3/2008)
I got my Bachelors Degree in my late teens early 20's because well that was what was expected of me. Having wealthy parents and going to college in the 70's certainly made it possible. That being said, if you can get your degree and you want to spend the time and money I would encourage you to begin the process. You may find the perfect job only to lose it because some manager won't look at anyone without a degree.As for certification - I got a MCAD (circa 2005, 3 tests) barely squeaking by 2 out of the 3 tests. I admit, some of my areas of ignorance shocked some of my bosses. They still got me noticed, though. It cost me 20 grand, a student loan I will be paying out until I retire (well, I did go back to school at 50). With your experience you may be able to get certified the way a co-worker did - cramming at night after putting her young daughter to bed. And she aced all 3 tests. The tests run a over a hundred each ($125 in 2005).
Wait a min...Im a little confused. Are you saying going for the certifications cost you 20 grand? You had schooling geared towards that?
April 3, 2008 at 7:47 pm
schumi (4/1/2008)
The valuable database theories that you are talking about can also be learned with a DB certificate in a university, you don't have to take a lot of uneccessary courses(usually required in a BS) just to get what you really want to. Sure theory is good if it is related to what you work on.
I am more into getting a BS degree, working and getting professional certificates, then getting masters in management... But if you didn't start the traditional way with BS degree and you are successful, there is no reason (and not much time) to go back to the first step of the ladder. Get a specific related certificate (theory and practice) and move up the ladder. Thats my opinion anyway.
I would have to agree here for the most part. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm a pretty recent graduate with the 4 year degree(BSBA Computer Information Systems) who doesn't know squat for the real world.
My situation was I graduated about a year ago and began my looong job search(I worked through school so I had a steady job during this all) So last Sept I landed a very cush job as an Analyst at a huge pharmaceutical company. Basically I got my own office and decent pay where I was using SQL Navigator to search Oracle for patient and prescriber information. I really didn't learn much and it was a contract job so it was only suppose to last 6 months to a year. Well it only lasted 4 months....well went on unemployment and started looking for jobs only to come and realize I had a degree with no actual real abilities. I mean I had a background and some knowledge in a lot of areas just because of classes but didn't know anything in depth at all. The only reason somebody would hire me is because I have a 4 year degree.
So i came to the realization I wanted to focus in one general area and focus hard...well here I am. Past month I have devoted myself to becoming a DBA in SQL Server. Everyday I read and read .. Its hard...its a lot of work but it will be done.
April 4, 2008 at 5:57 am
James Greaves (4/3/2008)
And we have seen that even these fields with their established standards don't always produce what you'd expect based on the qualification. We make jokes or here stories about incompetent lawyers and doctors all the time.
A lawyer can be disbarred, a doctor and engineer can lose his license to practice, and done by the governing board of state/province. When one of these professionals is not competent to practice their craft, they lose their ability to do, unlike an IT worker, who can carry on being incompetent.
Sure, that can happen. However, even this isn't without its problems. Do a Google search for "sc bar controversy" and you'll see what I mean.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
April 4, 2008 at 7:47 am
Johndavidson719 (4/3/2008)
schumi (4/1/2008)
So i came to the realization I wanted to focus in one general area and focus hard...well here I am. Past month I have devoted myself to becoming a DBA in SQL Server. Everyday I read and read .. Its hard...its a lot of work but it will be done.
That statement right there would make me consider you regardless of any piece of paper you may have (Degree or Cert). I would rather have someone who has the primary skills to do the work before I cared about Computer Science skills (we don't need a room full of theorists writing a query). But your statement that you have devoted to becoming a DBA means you now have focus and a genuine desire to acheive. Paper means you can read a book and regurgitate the answer (whoopie), fancy paper means you may have written a paper on what you learned. If you have the knowledge and the demonstratable skills of applying what you have learned the Paper is just icing to me, looks pretty but not the real value.
April 4, 2008 at 8:42 am
I do think you should get at least a Bachelor's degree. In the 80's and 90's it was enough to get an Associate degree. Many people I know have these. Today a BS seems to allow more competitiveness. I believe the reason is that community colleges teach like public high schools. They teach the student what they want them to know --- period. Most universities teach students how to do 'creative thinking'. Most (sadly not all) teach the basics in a classroom environment, then leave it up to each student to work on their own and discover more in-depth subject matter knowledge on their own. The professors are there to assist when students hit walls with thinking 'out-of-the-box'. I have a BS degree that took me ten years to pay off (so I do know the expense is there and growing everyday.) I graduated in 1987 and this past year sent my oldest son to college. The costs for one year is the cost mine was for the entire five years. My wife is also going back to complete her BS (already had an AA) at a private college where it costs around $7K /year plus it takes her away from time at home. She has a 40-hour/week job, but she wants to become more than she was without the education. Even if she doesn't change jobs, I can tell that she thinks more creatively than before.
With that said -- some people naturally do creative thinking at a young age, although I haven't met any. Older people (60-80) seem to master creative thinking on their own, but doing it at a younger age gives you more to think about. My opinion on Master's and PhD's is not so good. Most of the people with these degrees need to work in a strictly research or teaching environment. We've hire many at places I have worked and they come in with little experience making 10-25% more than people with BS's, yet there is no return on investment. They end up costing the company more because they think they are somehow better than the rest of the department. Causes animosity and the department doesn't run as well. Usually they job-hop within a year or two.
Bottom line...if not only for a career reason, I think you should think about pursuing a degree.
-- Al
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