March 31, 2008 at 6:02 am
Jack Corbett (3/30/2008)
I have nothing against getting a degree, but, as Jeff said, I am not sure what you gain on top of your experience. Do you feel green because the others are talking about theory that you don't fully understand or because they are writing code much better performing than yours?I do not have any type of degree or certificate in Computer Science, and yes, there are some theories I don't know and areas I need work and I work on them, but I have met many with degrees who can't do the basics especially in database work. Most CS programs I know of have virtually no database classes so you have to learn it all after graduation anyway.
You obviously knew enough to get hired, now take advantage of the knowledge of your co-workers. Don't be embarrassed by a a lack of knowledge, no one can know anything. When in doubt, ask! When you believe you are right stick to your guns. Also take advantage of resources like SSC, user groups, etc... If you really feel like you have gaps that need to be filled just take those classes or get a book on those areas. If you have a degree in anything it might be worthwhile to get an advanced degree in CS.
Pretty sage advice, Jack.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 31, 2008 at 7:23 am
Thanks for the nice words Jeff. I just try to be realistic.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 31, 2008 at 8:05 am
Cory,
Just typing out my thoughts ...
From my perception of things, it seems that the 4 year degree, and the certification are most effective at getting your resume passed the Human Resources (HR) staff. Meaning that you meet or exceed X number of bullet points on the job req.
Once your resume is in the hands of the hiring manager (who hopefully is technical), you will have to begin the technical screening, personality check etc. for the new position. This is where your personality and 10 years of experience come into play, where (hopefully) your knowledge is tested to satisfy the people you will be reporting to, as well as working with in your new position.
For your particular case, you have accomplished the hard part, you have the position. I would agree with your posting about waiting for the Tuition Assistance to "kick in". A degree is an investment in yourself. Certifications expire, but completed degrees do not. It would seem to me that if you want to advance in this company, you will need to have equal to or more education than your peers.
Personally, I have a BS in Information Technology, and a BS in Management; as well as the technical certifications in my tag line, plus I am entering in my 12th year in IT in April 2008. All of that is nice and all, *BUT* I learn something about technology, SQL, databases every day. I am constantly learning, sharing, and studying information. Forums like this one at SSC make me realize where my weaknesses (and strengths are). All of these accomplishments are personal goals for what I want. My employer has the benefit of my knowledge and experience.
Hope This Helps,
"Key"
MCITP: DBA, MCSE, MCTS: SQL 2005, OCP
March 31, 2008 at 9:22 am
There are places that will not consider someone without a bachelor’s degree because a high school diploma is no longer sufficient to demonstrate the most basic of job skills, the ability to read, write, and do basic math. Not that a bachelor’s degree is any assurance…
I got my bachelors degree in night school, and I can assure you it is a major commitment of time, so make sure you are really committed to the idea before starting. You really have to work hard to take enough classes to finish in any reasonable amount of time. It you don’t, your life is likely to go through some major change that will throw your degree plans off track, and make it even harder to get back to.
The thing that convinced me to go back to school was a story in a company newspaper. They was a guy who had always wanted to go to law school, but hesitated to start because he was 35 years old, and would be 40 by the time he finished. A friend pointed out to him that he would be 40 in five years whether he went to law school or not. He decided he would rather be a 40 year old with a law degree than a 40 year old without one.
March 31, 2008 at 9:27 am
Well said - I am in that boat as well...I am nearly 33. Taking one class a quarter would take about 7 years...Do I want to be 40 and no more schooling? What if I want to go further in the ranks (Manager level)? I don't know the answer yet...But do I want to be 40 and then decide I want further my ranks? Wow - Asking this question has made my decision harder, not easier.
-- Cory
March 31, 2008 at 10:02 am
I would say having a degree is worthwhile, but I would not persue it just to "filling a check box". I struggled to earn my BS degree while working (earned it 12 years after graduating High School), then at my wife's urging went on to get my Masters (took a 1.5 years). The reason for getting the Masters; during my job search during the time DG was closing its plant in Fountain, CO, many of the positions I was applying for said "Bachelor's required, Masters preferred". Did my degrees help me get my jobs, I don't think so, I think it was my experience and knowledge (and yes, some of that is from the degrees), and being able to apply it.
I still want to go back to school myself to earn a Doctorate, but I want to do it for myself, not to try to get a better job. Will I do it, don't know as I have 3 daughters, an 11th grader, 8th grader, and 4th grader; I need to be sure I can help them first as they have career goals that require going to college.
I do think that my degree's help get me past HR, but that's really about it. Having nearly 30 years experience helps during the interviews.
😎
March 31, 2008 at 10:07 am
I started night school with one year of full time school completed, so I was able to finish in 4 years by taking 8 classes per year, 3 each in fall and winter semesters and 2 in the summer semester. If a typical 40 3-credit classes are required, you would need to take about 6 classes per year to finish in 7 years, or 8 to finish in 6 years. Taking 8 classes per year was really the limit I could endure while working a full time job as a developer. I did manage to take 10 classes one year and left myself almost completely exhausted and sick for several months.
March 31, 2008 at 10:11 am
I'll be 32 this year. I started the degree 2 years ago. Got another 2-3 years to go.
I would suggest you sit down and take a look at the reasons you want to do a degree. Make sure that they're not all work-related.
7 years of part time study means 7 years of late nights, working over the weekend, missed parties, movies and time with friends and family. It's 7 years of hard work. Don't under estimate the amount of commitment required.
If you do go ahead, there will come a time, late one night when there's a little voice asking 'Why the hell am I doing this?' Make sure you have a good answer.
(The little voice and I are good friends these days... :hehe: )
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 31, 2008 at 10:16 am
Cory Ellingson (3/31/2008)
Well said - I am in that boat as well...I am nearly 33. Taking one class a quarter would take about 7 years...Do I want to be 40 and no more schooling? What if I want to go further in the ranks (Manager level)? I don't know the answer yet...But do I want to be 40 and then decide I want further my ranks? Wow - Asking this question has made my decision harder, not easier.
If you do decide to go forward with a degree I would recommend going for it at the Master's level. At this stage in your career, mine as well, a Bachelor degree is probably not going to take us much farther. If you do not have a Bachelor's in anything try to find a progrma where you can maximize your work experience in terms of credits allowed.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 31, 2008 at 10:21 am
I have two bachelor's degrees in related fields, Physics and Mathematics. But I don't have a Comp. Sci. degree. I would say because I have the degree in related fields, it hasn't hurt me, because some HR departments are looking for a checkbox to be filled and if two candidates are equal with everything but the degree, the person with the higher degree gets a slight preference. As for doing my day job, those degrees don't have a lot of direct impact.
I will say indirectly my work has benefited from my degrees. Getting better at studying and processing information, which earning those degrees forced me to do, has helped me in my job. Also, knowledge that doesn't direct correlate with IT has sometimes helped me because I see connections between something in IT and something I learned in school. So instead of learning something totally new, I'm just expanding on something I've already learned. For instance, learning Punnet squares in Genetics made understanding and visualizing CROSS JOIN very, very easy. Effectively, the operation is the same.
But as has been said already, when I've done job interviews, I look for a few things:
- Does the candidate possess the knowledge cited on the resume? (integrity issue)
- Does the candidate possess the minimum knowledge needed for the position on day one? (competence issue)
- Does the candidate possess the ability to learn and grow? (capacity issue)
- Does the candidate possess the ability to relate with others and work in a team environment? (interpersonal skills issue)
Certifications and degrees give some insight with regards to competence and capacity, but they don't answer those issues.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
March 31, 2008 at 10:54 am
Above all else, if you are going to go back to school, do it because you want to and not because you feel like you have to. I stopped 20 hours short of a 2 year degree to get married (divorced less than a year later, but I hav been married 11 years to my current wife). My wife is going back to school now and is enjoying it so much more than whn she first went. I myself plan to attend to learn more about SQL and data base theory so when I retire from my current job and can teach these new guys comin up. But as for that fancy paper, have met many who hav no clue as to what they are doing and it takes at least a year to get them really going if you can. Plus many times they come in in know-it-all mode (fancy word an terms are no knowledge they are speak people) but they get stuck when they realize they hav to learn new stuff everyday just to stay caught up, many don't expect that and leave quickly. The only downside is HR at many companies are doing the preliminary checks and many times they look for school before experience, so a degree is a good thing. BTW, a 2+ year old degree is not better than my current experience if you don' keep learning but alas HR is always blind.
April 1, 2008 at 7:25 am
well after reading all the posts, i think a good conclusion (in my opinion) would be:
1) you need a BS to get a ticket to the HR office. But I think your 10 year experience gives you an equal ticket
2) what you learn in a BS is more theoretical and probably your knowledge already covers what you are going to learn (at least the small practical job-related parts). My opinion will be to get professional certification, they are the ones to give you an edge on your colleagues because you learn things that you can apply the second day at your job. Certificates make you more confident because at least you feel you know all aspects of a tool ( like SQL) although you might not be an expert on all but you know what exists and what can be done and by using books later on you can accomplish things you couldn't before. Some said a certificate can expire, but thats only the piece of paper. your knowledge say in sql2005 will not expire and will be a great asset.
I got my B.Sc. overseas, i got it evaluated here and all but i felt i have something less than the others because I could feel i'm being labeled. I found a job rather quickly though and i'm going for my M.Sc. now online just to feel the intrinsic value of a degree. But if I had 10 years experience, i'll get MS certified in what i'm working and feel very confident of what i'm doing. There are also certificates granted by universities (like 5-7 course certificates) that can be in any field (like DB, Management....).
April 1, 2008 at 7:46 am
schumi (4/1/2008)
well after reading all the posts, i think a good conclusion (in my opinion) would be:1) you need a BS to get a ticket to the HR office. But I think your 10 year experience gives you an equal ticket
2) what you learn in a BS is more theoretical and probably your knowledge already covers what you are going to learn (at least the small practical job-related parts). My opinion will be to get professional certification, they are the ones to give you an edge on your colleagues because you learn things that you can apply the second day at your job. Certificates make you more confident because at least you feel you know all aspects of a tool ( like SQL) although you might not be an expert on all but you know what exists and what can be done and by using books later on you can accomplish things you couldn't before. Some said a certificate can expire, but thats only the piece of paper. your knowledge say in sql2005 will not expire and will be a great asset.
For #1, getting hired it should. Getting equal pay, not necessarily. A friend of mine is banging his head completing his B.S. because his company told him flat out that's one of the reasons he's not getting paid as much... and he's a senior .NET architect with over 10 years of development experience.
For #2, yes and no. In a lot of ways I wished I had gotten a Comp Sci degree. There are some "theoretical" aspects that do apply well. One example given by C. J. Date is knowledge of the theoretical aspects of relational databases. I've had to learn this on my own by using the academic texts as truthfully most of the technical manuals don't cover this stuff in much detail. But it is applicable. And it is valuable. And you're not going to get it just on the job.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
April 1, 2008 at 1:01 pm
K. Brian Kelley,
I agree with you that we cannot generalize, but for every company paying more for Degree holders, you will find another one making fun of those who got their BS and think they own the world, so they look more for practical technical people. Someone in his reply mentioned specific questions used in interviews (which fields you would index on? how to optimize a query.....), those don't care much about theories, they want a problem solver. So the market has both types.
The valuable database theories that you are talking about can also be learned with a DB certificate in a university, you don't have to take a lot of uneccessary courses(usually required in a BS) just to get what you really want to. Sure theory is good if it is related to what you work on.
I am more into getting a BS degree, working and getting professional certificates, then getting masters in management... But if you didn't start the traditional way with BS degree and you are successful, there is no reason (and not much time) to go back to the first step of the ladder. Get a specific related certificate (theory and practice) and move up the ladder. Thats my opinion anyway.
April 2, 2008 at 1:37 am
Just to add to what has already been said...
This is an actual quote from my boss, who was talking to a recruitment agency yesterday about a new developer:
"I'm not too fussed about qualifications, I'm more bothered about experience... and then it'll be up to him to show me that he can do the job"
All the best
SAM
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