March 20, 2012 at 2:25 pm
One thing that will attract talent to a company is when they publish technology solution case studies in trade publications or on their website. There have been occasions where I run across an interesting article about something SQL Server related that a local companies are doing. Without even applying for a specific job opening, I would send them my resume with a cover letter inviting them to call me anytime to discuss any opportunities they may have. Months would go by, but I would eventually get a call back. This has led to what I conder two of my best jobs, ones that I stayed with for several years.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 20, 2012 at 2:38 pm
I'm currently dealing with this exact issue. We're trying to locate a 6 month contractor to handle a SSRS report request overload from the business.
So far: Three people who can't tell me how to apply a parameter to a report. One person who the consulting firm 'assisted' on his resume when he hadn't done reporting work in YEARS (The last four listed reporting work as his first bullet point). Two people who didn't realise it was 'reporting only' and not real dev work.
It's bad out there right now.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
March 20, 2012 at 4:37 pm
GSquared (3/20/2012)
The stories about interviewees who have "10 years SQL Server" on their resume and don't know what an index is, also go around and create a bigger impression than their actual impact. But, they are much more common than they should be.
Heh... I'll personally vouch that they are not just stories. We were looking for an SQL Developer at one of my previous companies. My boss was incredibly thrilled with this one fellow who had rated himself as a "9 out of 10 in both SQL Server and Oracle with 8 years experience in both" right on his resume and wanted to hire him on the spot. I reminded him that everyone had to go through the same process which included an interview by me.
I'm not a brutal interviewer. I realize that some applicants are absolutely petrified during interviews especially if they need the job. Because of that, I explain to them that I'm going to ask some simple warmup questions just so they can get used to answer questions and make the realization that we're not there to show off how much we know but to find out what they know.
Right after I got done explaining that to this 9-out-of-10 guy, I asked him some questions about himself and let him talk a bit. When I thought he was ready, I said, "Ok, time for some simple SQL Questions. Go for the obvious answers on these. I'm not trying to trick you. Ready?"
"Yup, Ready."
"Take your pick... Oracle or SQL Server. Which function would you use to find out the current date and time?"
Now, remember this guy is interviewing as an SQL Developer and claims 8 years experience... his answer?
"I don't know. We always used the GUI for that."
It was the shortest interview I ever conducted.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 20, 2012 at 6:12 pm
We're trying to locate a 6 month contractor to handle a SSRS report request overload from the business.
I'm your huckleberry...
March 20, 2012 at 6:16 pm
Burninator (3/20/2012)
We're trying to locate a 6 month contractor to handle a SSRS report request overload from the business.
I'm your huckleberry...
Needs to be on-site in Phoenix, AZ. Chair warmth is required for this position due to extraneous factors. If you're serious contact me via PM and we'll go from there.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
March 20, 2012 at 11:55 pm
Jeff Moden (3/20/2012)
GSquared (3/20/2012)
The stories about interviewees who have "10 years SQL Server" on their resume and don't know what an index is, also go around and create a bigger impression than their actual impact. But, they are much more common than they should be.Heh... I'll personally vouch that they are not just stories. We were looking for an SQL Developer at one of my previous companies. My boss was incredibly thrilled with this one fellow who had rated himself as a "9 out of 10 in both SQL Server and Oracle with 8 years experience in both" right on his resume and wanted to hire him on the spot. I reminded him that everyone had to go through the same process which included an interview by me.
I'm not a brutal interviewer. I realize that some applicants are absolutely petrified during interviews especially if they need the job. Because of that, I explain to them that I'm going to ask some simple warmup questions just so they can get used to answer questions and make the realization that we're not there to show off how much we know but to find out what they know.
Right after I got done explaining that to this 9-out-of-10 guy, I asked him some questions about himself and let him talk a bit. When I thought he was ready, I said, "Ok, time for some simple SQL Questions. Go for the obvious answers on these. I'm not trying to trick you. Ready?"
"Yup, Ready."
"Take your pick... Oracle or SQL Server. Which function would you use to find out the current date and time?"
Now, remember this guy is interviewing as an SQL Developer and claims 8 years experience... his answer?
"I don't know. We always used the GUI for that."
It was the shortest interview I ever conducted.
So, let's take the other end of the spectrum. If the same person had said: "Well, there are several possibilities depending on your requirements." And then proceeded to discuss these functions in detail:
SYSDATETIME()
SYSDATETIMEOFFSET()
SYSUTCDATETIME()
CURRENT_TIMESTAMP
GETDATE()
GETUTCDATE()
Would you have hired him on the spot?
James Stover, McDBA
March 21, 2012 at 6:37 am
Nope. But that would certainly have set a better tone for the interview.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 21, 2012 at 8:22 am
Jeff Moden (3/21/2012)
Nope. But that would certainly have set a better tone for the interview.
Been there as well, had a case where it was apparent within 2-3 minutes of the phone interview that the candidate was unsuitable, one of us stayed behind and interviewed for about 5 more minutes to not be rude, needless to say that candidate was not chosen..
CEWII
March 21, 2012 at 8:47 am
It should also be noted that this can cut both ways. Many times when a developer is asking questions of a DBA applicant they will not ask Administration based questions but development questions. They will also only ask questions about things they have had to fight to get through. An example of one is limiting results to a query like top or rowcount or nocount. It isn't a very clever question but a particular developer thought he was slick and it isn't a question for a DBA applicant, but a developer. What if an applicant aces all these silly questions but knows nothing of data recovery or even lacks a basic understanding of data loss prevention but is hired because some clown developer is impressed? I think it is things like this that validate the need for third party skill testing. Apply for a DBA position and take the DBA test and if you want "extra credit" take the developer test too so you can show you have a large skill set. If you are applying for a developer position do the opposite and take the optional admin test.
I know what I know and the other guy knows what they know. None of us knows it all but if you are interviewing applicants then the questions should be kept relevant to the position and not the interviewer's ego or just their personal experience. A third party test removes all this. just sayin'
Cheers
March 21, 2012 at 8:55 am
jfogel (3/21/2012)
It should also be noted that this can cut both ways. Many times when a developer is asking questions of a DBA applicant they will not ask Administration based questions but development questions. They will also only ask questions about things they have had to fight to get through. An example of one is limiting results to a query like top or rowcount or nocount. It isn't a very clever question but a particular developer thought he was slick and it isn't a question for a DBA applicant, but a developer. What if an applicant aces all these silly questions but knows nothing of data recovery or even lacks a basic understanding of data loss prevention but is hired because some clown developer is impressed? I think it is things like this that validate the need for third party skill testing. Apply for a DBA position and take the DBA test and if you want "extra credit" take the developer test too so you can show you have a large skill set. If you are applying for a developer position do the opposite and take the optional admin test.I know what I know and the other guy knows what they know. None of us knows it all but if you are interviewing applicants the questions should be keep relevant to the position and not the interviewers ego or just their personal experience. A third party test removes all this. just sayin'
I think one prerequisite for being a good DBA is know how to deal with cocky developers. Also, from the perspective of the DBA getting interviewed, the type of questions he's getting asked and the disposition of the interviewer can provide insight into what he would potentially be dealing with on a day to day basis.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 21, 2012 at 8:56 am
jfogel (3/21/2012)
It should also be noted that this can cut both ways. Many times when a developer is asking questions of a DBA applicant they will not ask Administration based questions but development questions. They will also only ask questions about things they have had to fight to get through. An example of one is limiting results to a query like top or rowcount or nocount. It isn't a very clever question but a particular developer thought he was slick and it isn't a question for a DBA applicant, but a developer. What if an applicant aces all these silly questions but knows nothing of data recovery or even lacks a basic understanding of data loss prevention but is hired because some clown developer is impressed? I think it is things like this that validate the need for third party skill testing. Apply for a DBA position and take the DBA test and if you want "extra credit" take the developer test too so you can show you have a large skill set. If you are applying for a developer position do the opposite and take the optional admin test.I know what I know and the other guy knows what they know. None of us knows it all but if you are interviewing applicants the questions should be keep relevant to the position and not the interviewers ego or just their personal experience. A third party test removes all this. just sayin'
The age-old question of how do you interview someone about their knowledge, when the whole reason you need to hire them is because you don't know the subject yourself?
Third-party testing would be a good alternative if it were done right. I've yet to see that happen, but it is theoretically possible.
I've seen Brainbench test questions where ALL of the options given in a multiple choice format were wrong, but where I could tell which wrong answer the original author thought was correct. Like questions about #temp vs @variable tables, and one of the answers being "Table variables are faster because they are memory-only, while temp tables are written to disk", and the other three answers being obviously incorrect. So, no correct option given, but one of the options is a commonly accepted false datum that lots of people think is correct. Chose that one, got points for the question. Tests are only as good as the people writing them.
I've seen ProveIt tests with the same kind of problems.
Add in that an online test is only as honest as the person taking it, with no verification of actual identity, no cheat-prevention, et al.
It's definitely a conundrum. Other professions have solved it with educational standards, apprenticeships/internships, and other tools. IT hasn't solved it yet.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 21, 2012 at 9:09 am
Know it all developers, flawed test, etc. Perhaps it is hard to win. A recommendation from a person who already works at the company is a great thing as mentioned in the article. Unless, of course, they are easily amused and think someone is very talented when in fact they are a hack. I've seen this too. I think we all have.
Cheers
March 21, 2012 at 9:29 am
What is that noise I hear? That is the sound of developers across the entire planet hootin' and hollerin' 'cause we've finally achieved "cocky, slick thinkin', know-it-all, clown" status.
Woohoo!
Seriously though, some of you need to take it easy. I've learned alot from all of you in the SQL Server forum and it has helped me to do better database programming. But most of us developers are not the devil and if we ask database programming related questions, that is because that is our bias, i.e. what we worry about the most. If you are hiring an administrative dba, then we shouldn't be part of the interview process. But if management insists on us participating, maybe the IT folks need to meet with us first and reach agreement on the kinds of questions we should ask.
Communication and teamwork is the key.
March 21, 2012 at 9:36 am
Easy killer.
Cheers
March 21, 2012 at 9:49 am
No offense taken. 😀
I just gleaned some "facts" to make a stronger point about interview practices and how they sometimes don't make sense, which goes to my earlier post. Based on the kind of role being filled, some people should or should not participate. If the wrong people are involved in the interview process, then the process is flawed.
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 36 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply