March 19, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Attracting Talent
March 20, 2012 at 7:29 am
I use a simple straight forward technique that rarely fails to illustrate a person's skill set, its a show me approach for example; "...Please login to our development/test server and write a stored procedure that can process the following...blah blah blah" it does not have to be overly complex to find out whether or not the person is equipped to do the job for which you are considering them. It quickly shows how the person approaches new problems, shows their thinking rpocess, their ability to find answers on their own. If the issues are more complex, hire them as a consultant, let them perform a specific project or phase of a project. Decide then if you want to hire them.
March 20, 2012 at 8:22 am
I've said this in other posts but I will re-iterate it here.
Participating in online forums is a great way to show over time your demeanor, your process, your skills, and how you work with others. If you are a fairly active participator its something I would list on your resume, write an article or two and list those too. Give your interviewer something OTHER than what you are saying RIGHT NOW to look at.
For my current position I had a brutal technical interview, with a mix of the standard and some VERY VERY deep questions, brutal but fun. Had I done poorly on that step we wouldn't have moved to the more personal interview where my participation here and on Codeplex provided insight into who I am in a way that was visible to everyone who wanted to look. That view certainly helped but I still had to sell myself, but you could take what I said in the interview and see my online presence and compare the two.
As for attracting talent, I don't think it has to be all $$$ or perks. Those help but having a good environment makes all the difference. There is a lot you can put up with if you work with good people and management is at least reasonable. Here is a good example, about a year ago I saw an add for a Sharepoint Admin position, requirements were Top Secret Clearance with polygraph and a Sharepoint admin background, basically, for $250,000/year, the catch, it was in Afghanistan.. Lots of $$$ but rough environment..
Companies with VERY Strict PTO policies are not viewed well and companies who chronically underpay or under-reward are also viewed poorly. If I were a consultant/contractor punching a clock is more acceptable sicne we are paid by the hour usually.. Companies that treat their staff like adults will always be viewed better than ones who treat them like children.
March 20, 2012 at 8:42 am
Intriguing article, Steve, I'm going to follow this discussion with interest. I've only one, tangential thing to add; I've never gotten a job in the prescribed way of networking or word of mouth. Every job I've had, including the one I'm in now, I got by seeing an ad in the newspaper. I know that's not the best way, and I wish I were better at it. I hope that I'll gain insight by watching this thread.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
March 20, 2012 at 8:47 am
Want to hire some good talent? Then clean up your interviewing process.
I can't tell you how many companies have done their best to make me want to run away screaming because they have such bizarre interview tactics. I don't have an encyclopedic memory, I haven't been working on your specific product and therefore don't necessarily understand some of the subtleties you may have gleaned from your specific experiences and I am not a PhD candidate who is working on some obscure algorithmn that may or may not change the world.
Do you want to know what makes me tick? Then ask me to walk through the architecture, design, implementation and delivery of the products I have built. Don't just sit there and let me awe you: ask me questions and don't be afraid to challenge what I say. See for yourself as I explain why I am going to be a great asset to your team and will be a significant contributor to your success. Observe how well I communicate and how quickly I can get comfortable with a whole room of interviewers itching to find a way to trip me up (LOL).
Geesh...there have been some real doozies out there. It amazes me that some companies can hire anyone competent at all.
March 20, 2012 at 9:21 am
Rod at work (3/20/2012)
Intriguing article, Steve, I'm going to follow this discussion with interest. I've only one, tangential thing to add; I've never gotten a job in the prescribed way of networking or word of mouth. Every job I've had, including the one I'm in now, I got by seeing an ad in the newspaper. I know that's not the best way, and I wish I were better at it. I hope that I'll gain insight by watching this thread.
I got most of mine that way as well. Newspapers early, and then Monster/Dice.
However my wife has never answered a want ad, never applied for a job. She's always had people recommend her or tell her about jobs that were un-posted and had network get her through 5 companies (1 twice) across 20 years.
March 20, 2012 at 9:30 am
Resume reads:
"I am a master of Sequel Server"
Yeah uh okay.
Cheers
March 20, 2012 at 9:48 am
I think there's a lot to this subject. It's not a simple situation.
For example, we don't graduate people from school with the skills of problem solving, interpersonal dynamics, technical skill learning, knowing when to take the initiative, et al. All the things an employer actually looks for beyond just the base skillset. We graduate people with the ability to do homework and take tests, and that's what most people end up being good at. Those skills are rarely applicable in the world of work. (Not many people work in an environment that consists of rows of desks and chairs facing a blackboard, being paid to listen to someone lecture, and then writing an essay about the lecture.)
Employers expect to find skillsets that are insane: "Expected Skills: X years experience in .NET, COBOL, Ruby on Rails, ColdFusion, C, JAVA, SQL Server, Oracle, DB2, MySQL, TCP/IP, Windows AD, Linux, Unix, AJAX, PeopleSoft, Great Plains, T-SQL, SSIS, SSAS, SSRS; Must be self-motivated, a good team player, and have no life so you can do 24X7 ..." and so on. Then, along with that list of skills that there might be 2 people on the planet who actually do ALL of that, they want to hire for industry-average pay.
Many job-seekers mirror this by expecting that "I know how to spell SQL, .NET, and I really, really need this job" will land a job. I've seen falsified resumes more times than I care to list.
MOST managers/employers, and MOST job-seekers, are honest, willing to work through minor speed-bumps in the interview/hiring process, and are willing to deal with slight deviations from a desired skillset in the "would-be-nice" skills, and so on. But a few create a lot of noise by going outside the bounds of good sense (at least) and ethics (unfortunately frequent).
The stories about employers who want things like 10 years experience in SQL 2012, those go around and everyone laughs/groans/both at them, and they become somewhat infamous disproportionately to their actual frequency. The stories about interviewees who have "10 years SQL Server" on their resume and don't know what an index is, also go around and create a bigger impression than their actual impact. But, they are much more common than they should be.
All of those factors combine together, along with plenty of others, and we get a complex situation, with no easy, simple solution.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 20, 2012 at 10:14 am
jfogel (3/20/2012)
Resume reads:"I am a master of Sequel Server"
Yeah uh okay.
RAISERROR ......
Ah, a little SQL humor..
CEWII
March 20, 2012 at 10:18 am
GSquared (3/20/2012)
Many job-seekers mirror this by expecting that "I know how to spell SQL, .NET, and I really, really need this job" will land a job. I've seen falsified resumes more times than I care to list.
In a previous post we did all phone interviews for a contractor to come in, when they guy actually came it wasn't the guy we interviewed, either they or he had someone who knew a LOT more than he did do the interview. To help combat this we started asking some odd questions if we were interested in you, just a little off beat, nothing sketchy. but things we could check again when showed up..
CEWII
March 20, 2012 at 11:10 am
jfogel (3/20/2012)
Resume reads:"I am a master of Sequel Server"
Yeah uh okay.
Well, if he doesn't even know what the technology is called, then even Google and MSDN won't help him. I wonder how he even found the job listing.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 20, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/20/2012)
Rod at work (3/20/2012)
Intriguing article, Steve, I'm going to follow this discussion with interest. I've only one, tangential thing to add; I've never gotten a job in the prescribed way of networking or word of mouth. Every job I've had, including the one I'm in now, I got by seeing an ad in the newspaper. I know that's not the best way, and I wish I were better at it. I hope that I'll gain insight by watching this thread.I got most of mine that way as well. Newspapers early, and then Monster/Dice.
However my wife has never answered a want ad, never applied for a job. She's always had people recommend her or tell her about jobs that were un-posted and had network get her through 5 companies (1 twice) across 20 years.
WOW, that's cool!
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
March 20, 2012 at 12:49 pm
GSquared (3/20/2012)
I think there's a lot to this subject. It's not a simple situation.For example, we don't graduate people from school with the skills of problem solving, interpersonal dynamics, technical skill learning, knowing when to take the initiative, et al. All the things an employer actually looks for beyond just the base skillset. We graduate people with the ability to do homework and take tests, and that's what most people end up being good at. Those skills are rarely applicable in the world of work. (Not many people work in an environment that consists of rows of desks and chairs facing a blackboard, being paid to listen to someone lecture, and then writing an essay about the lecture.)
Employers expect to find skillsets that are insane: "Expected Skills: X years experience in .NET, COBOL, Ruby on Rails, ColdFusion, C, JAVA, SQL Server, Oracle, DB2, MySQL, TCP/IP, Windows AD, Linux, Unix, AJAX, PeopleSoft, Great Plains, T-SQL, SSIS, SSAS, SSRS; Must be self-motivated, a good team player, and have no life so you can do 24X7 ..." and so on. Then, along with that list of skills that there might be 2 people on the planet who actually do ALL of that, they want to hire for industry-average pay.
Many job-seekers mirror this by expecting that "I know how to spell SQL, .NET, and I really, really need this job" will land a job. I've seen falsified resumes more times than I care to list.
MOST managers/employers, and MOST job-seekers, are honest, willing to work through minor speed-bumps in the interview/hiring process, and are willing to deal with slight deviations from a desired skillset in the "would-be-nice" skills, and so on. But a few create a lot of noise by going outside the bounds of good sense (at least) and ethics (unfortunately frequent).
The stories about employers who want things like 10 years experience in SQL 2012, those go around and everyone laughs/groans/both at them, and they become somewhat infamous disproportionately to their actual frequency. The stories about interviewees who have "10 years SQL Server" on their resume and don't know what an index is, also go around and create a bigger impression than their actual impact. But, they are much more common than they should be.
All of those factors combine together, along with plenty of others, and we get a complex situation, with no easy, simple solution.
Gail, I've seen job postings like that, too, where such a person would be a superman/superwoman, if they knew well all of the skill sets listed. However, for me it has always put me off. I never apply for those jobs, because I don't have all of those skills. Honestly, I think that they're really interested in finding someone who can do all of that stuff, don't you? I mean, why put a huge laundry list of skills into a job listing, if you know a priori, that it will result in lots of people applying who will bs their way through the interview? It's either that, or they already have one person in mind they want for the job, and have asked him/her what all of their skills are, and then list all of those, hoping that at most they'll get only 1 other people applying.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
March 20, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Believe I have the other problem. Windward is a great place to work but reading through our website, you wouldn't guess this.
I've been tasked with beefing up our careers page and want to thank you and your cohort at RedGate for the insight. Enough of the standard marketing speak, time to ask those here why they are here and get their responses posted. And, as our CTO says, "be brutally honest." "When we say no dress code, we mean we want you to be comfortable and pretty much the only thing forbidden is bike shorts."
Thanks for the timely article!
Annette with Windward
March 20, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Eric M Russell (3/20/2012)
jfogel (3/20/2012)
Resume reads:"I am a master of Sequel Server"
Yeah uh okay.
I wonder how he even found the job listing.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.
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