July 2, 2010 at 9:37 am
Not sure I agree with that. If I spend 3 hours talking to the person to walk through solving issues, seeing how they think, give them a computer, etc., you'll get an idea of how they work with you. How they solve things, what they google (yes, let them google), you get an idea how they work.
Here, you just get ideas on how to learn about a person, or what to ask.
July 2, 2010 at 9:45 am
Dan.Humphries (7/2/2010)
If you where a box of crayons what color would you be and why?I love when these types of questions get asked!
Can someone tell me how this tells them anything about me?
The correct answer to that question (courtesy of the show "The Middle") is:
"Um, I guess the color that I am - can you even ask me that???"
:w00t::hehe:
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How best to post your question[/url]
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
July 2, 2010 at 9:57 am
If the bar is a test to get a job, then getting a degree should be made irrelevant and not be a requirement. If someone can pass a company's test without amassing large amounts of student loans, there is no reason for that to be required. I learned all of my programming skills on my own from $500 worth of computer books and I'm finding that seems to have been a better education than what other co-workers have received. I honestly learned nothing from my college program but was forced to get a degree because companies are more interested in a piece of paper than what you know.
July 2, 2010 at 10:36 am
I've been writing software for 25 years (though pretty new to serious SQL dev beyond the SELECT FieldA FROM TableB level). As a C/C++/C# dev lead, I've settled over the years on a few "qualifying" questions for phone screens, even of senior devs. To my own surprise, I find that the questions that tell me most about the applicant are extremely elementary, on the level of "what's the difference between the stack and the heap, and why/when would you care?"
For a SQL dev, the equivalent might be something about the difference between inner and outer joins, or how GROUP BY is different than ORDER BY, or what pitfalls to be aware of when generating dynamic SQL.
It's not so much whether the applicant knows the "right" answer, but how intelligently they can talk about the deeper implications of the answer. For instance, if a candidate responds to the "stack/heap" question by talking about recursion and scope vs. memory leaks and smart pointers (remember this is in the C/C++ arena), then I'm comfortable that I'm talking to somebody who's solved some real-world problems.
On the other hand, an "I have no idea" or vague gobbledegoop from a computer-science text (especially from somebody who claims years of C++ experience) tells me the candidate is, at best, not very thoughtful about their coding choices, and definitely not somebody I want to hire. I'm always surprised at how MANY applicants fail this simplest of tests - usually around 50%.
I agree with everyone who made the point that the interviewer has to have an intelligent understanding of the question. For instance, as dev lead, I leave the technical SQL/ASP questions to one of my senior devs who has much more experience there than I do!
Hiring is one of the hardest, most high-stakes things we do. If there's going to be a test, maybe it should be given to those of us doing the hiring? ;-), sort of.
July 2, 2010 at 10:44 am
anelson 66875 (7/2/2010)Hiring is one of the hardest, most high-stakes things we do. If there's going to be a test, maybe it should be given to those of us doing the hiring? ;-), sort of.
😀 I like that idea - before any manager is allowed to be involved in a hiring process they have to pass a test - not sure how many of them would make that 😛
July 2, 2010 at 11:37 am
Dan.Humphries (7/2/2010)
If you where a box of crayons what color would you be and why?I love when these types of questions get asked!
Can someone tell me how this tells them anything about me?
No kidding. And how many different ways could you answer it? I could pick red, blue or black and spin a tale. It's nonsense.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
July 2, 2010 at 11:40 am
michael.wiles (7/2/2010)
If the bar is a test to get a job, then getting a degree should be made irrelevant and not be a requirement. If someone can pass a company's test without amassing large amounts of student loans, there is no reason for that to be required. I learned all of my programming skills on my own from $500 worth of computer books and I'm finding that seems to have been a better education than what other co-workers have received. I honestly learned nothing from my college program but was forced to get a degree because companies are more interested in a piece of paper than what you know.
Bad news, or good news depending on your point of view, I never look at anyone's degree when determining if they're qualified. I look at their work history and nothing else. It's all I care about when I'm looking at a resume. I care about much more when I'm talking to the person, but the resume needs to show me demonstrated knowledge, not some barely applicable book learning.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
July 2, 2010 at 11:52 am
I've found that people who take the time to learn the stuff on their own usually have more enthusiasm and ambition when it comes to working with the technology. People with degrees typically have more discipline. I want discipline in a project manager, but not necessarily in a programmer. A little outside of the box thinking is often just what the doctor ordered...
--J
July 2, 2010 at 2:20 pm
James Stover (7/2/2010)
I'm a believer in contract-to-hire. It gives everyone a chance to "kick the tires" and if it doesn't work out, you cut your losses. Oh sure, the contractor can walk away but so can your FTE. For the contractor, it's easy these days to explain away a 3-month stint (for example): "Oh, it was a 3-month contract." Enough said.Three months is a comparatively small investment for a long-term hire and it's unlikely a huge amount of IP is going to walk out the door if it doesn't work out. It confuses me why people are hung-up on full-time positions. It's really an illusion for both sides.
I think this is generally a good approach. It seems to me that there's a lot more to whether someone is right for a job than what you can test in an interview. You could end up with a smart guy or good interviewer who has poor work ethic, or doesnt follow standards, or doesnt get along with colleagues, etc.
And it also strikes me as easier to sell management on bringing in someone for a set time/expense and body of work, and make a case to keep them if they show value, than to justify making a new full time hire. And making it an easier sell also reduces chances that your request to bring someone in sits on a shelf for a year awaiting approval.
July 2, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Grant Fritchey,
You alluded to the fact that you look at work history with applicable knowledge in order to give someone a position. How does someone usually get work history? Its usually by having a degree. When I didn't have my degree I went on several interviews and was even told that I was their favorite candidate but wasn't going to get the position because I didn't have a degree or work history. So, your statement is the classic catch 22. Need experience to get the job, need degree to be given first job. Therefore, by default, need degree to get a position in your firm since you look at work history.
July 2, 2010 at 2:30 pm
michael.wiles (7/2/2010)
Grant Fritchey,You alluded to the fact that you look at work history with applicable knowledge in order to give someone a position. How does someone usually get work history? Its usually by having a degree. When I didn't have my degree I went on several interviews and was even told that I was their favorite candidate but wasn't going to get the position because I didn't have a degree or work history. So, your statement is the classic catch 22. Need experience to get the job, need degree to be given first job. Therefore, by default, need degree to get a position in your firm since you look at work history.
It is a catch 22 that definitely is the reason most of us went to college in the first place. However, it is possible to get a job without a degree. It usually involves working for small companies. It's also a much more painful process as you'll typically get low-balled on price, and have to work that much hard to prove yourself. It happens, though, all the time.
--J
July 2, 2010 at 4:27 pm
michael.wiles (7/2/2010)
Grant Fritchey,You alluded to the fact that you look at work history with applicable knowledge in order to give someone a position. How does someone usually get work history? Its usually by having a degree. When I didn't have my degree I went on several interviews and was even told that I was their favorite candidate but wasn't going to get the position because I didn't have a degree or work history. So, your statement is the classic catch 22. Need experience to get the job, need degree to be given first job. Therefore, by default, need degree to get a position in your firm since you look at work history.
It really depends on the person. I know a number of very successful people in IT that don't have degrees or have degrees in completely unrelated fields. I'm a college drop-out myself. No degree to speak of. I suspect there's a job or two I've missed because of that fact, but I also suspect those are jobs I wouldn't have wanted anyway (or so I keep telling myself). The unfortunate fact is, a CS degree doesn't mean that the holder knows squat about development or administration or management. It just means they passed the classes in front of them. That's not a bad thing, but it's not automatically a good thing. And, no, I don't count it as experience.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
July 2, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Dan.Humphries (7/2/2010)
If you where a box of crayons what color would you be and why?I love when these types of questions get asked!
Can someone tell me how this tells them anything about me?
Periwinkle. I dunno; it's just the first color that popped into my head. Kind of a purpley-greyey-blue. Or better yet, #AAAAFF
Periwinkle = stupid answer for a stupid question 🙂
James Stover, McDBA
July 3, 2010 at 10:11 am
Grant Fritchey (7/2/2010)
michael.wiles (7/2/2010)
Grant Fritchey,You alluded to the fact that you look at work history with applicable knowledge in order to give someone a position. How does someone usually get work history? Its usually by having a degree. When I didn't have my degree I went on several interviews and was even told that I was their favorite candidate but wasn't going to get the position because I didn't have a degree or work history. So, your statement is the classic catch 22. Need experience to get the job, need degree to be given first job. Therefore, by default, need degree to get a position in your firm since you look at work history.
It really depends on the person. I know a number of very successful people in IT that don't have degrees or have degrees in completely unrelated fields. I'm a college drop-out myself. No degree to speak of. I suspect there's a job or two I've missed because of that fact, but I also suspect those are jobs I wouldn't have wanted anyway (or so I keep telling myself). The unfortunate fact is, a CS degree doesn't mean that the holder knows squat about development or administration or management. It just means they passed the classes in front of them. That's not a bad thing, but it's not automatically a good thing. And, no, I don't count it as experience.
That's pretty much how I feel, as well. I'll add that I've interviewed a lot of folks who supposedly have a ton of experience that turned out to be about as smart as a fence post.
So far as testing goes, I think that companies that use test sites like Brain Bench or 20 page logic tests are missing out on hiring some really smart people just because some of those people don't know how to take a test. I also think that Brain-Bench-like tests and many cert programs don't actually test on how to write code. For example, one of my old bosses hired some dude that passed a Brain Bench test for SQL with a very high mark. That same dude couldn't write a 3 table join to save his life.
Testing interview candidates doesn't need to be difficult or even formal. I find out a lot about the human side (attitude, personality, etc) and the level of knowledge (lot's of standard and some not-so-standard questions) during the interview. I'll also have them take a 3 or 4 question "write some code" test like joining 3 tables and the infamous Fizz-Buzz question (or something like it just to see how the process "loops" in their mind).
And, yes, I've ended interviews in as few as 2 questions and I've also hired people who have no real world experience.
To answer the question "do we need more testing" in the editorial... I'd say "Yes" but not like everyone else thinks. I think people need to learn how to interview people better. If you're the one doing the interviewing and you're not an SME on the subject, then hire a well known consultant to do the interviewing for you.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 3, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Hiring human resources gets lost often and two simple concepts are ignored: Chemistry Fit and Future Need.
Simple method is we need to hire an x to do y and z. Reason being that we don't have anyone able to do y and z or not enough anyones to do ys and zs. Then you hire x and the situation changes and y and z processing is adequate but now you need the x to take on some additional responsibilities. Or the x is perfect in theory and paper but communicates poorly or integrates poorly with the other staff.
Chemistry Fit ~ Good people that form good ties invariably care more about those/organization that they bond with and learn and volunteer to take on responsibilities that incorporate the y and the z.
Future Need ~ hard to predict but having people who can adapt often beats the purely conditioned and classicaly trained.
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