February 16, 2010 at 4:28 pm
If someone doesn't understand, they ought to argue with us. Certainly blindly following my advice, Gail's advice, etc. is a good way for them not to learn, and for us to get away with saying things that are incorrect as we rest on our collective laurels. The world has changed as SQL Server has changed, and people should question why we say things.
However, they also ought to have a basis. Saying that I need to do something and "emergency mode" is the thing to do, is asking for trouble. It's looking for any solution to any problem, and not necessarily the one that you have.
That's the type of exchange that I'd like to know about in an interview. Seeing that would raise serious questions about someone's ability to handle a crisis.
February 16, 2010 at 4:29 pm
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
Elliott W (2/16/2010)
Before you get into a dander any further. I have a couple questions, has this actually happened to you and how did you solve it? On reflection was that the right way or did you get lucky?My point is and will continue to be that regardless of what the original poster had already done, the right answer was STILL to step back and determine WHY he had the problem.
I (unfortunately) have had this happen, the logs clearly showed a problem where a database file was not available and was caused by a LUN being offline, once that was resolved the problem was VERY easy to solve, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't look at the logs. This is just one example..
If I may offer a suggestion. Just stop. Drop this issue altogether. Move on.
If LUN went offline server team would have told you in first place, i am not against checking SQL error logs in first place, I don't agree with those who said you cannot extract data if database is set in Emergency mode.
EnjoY!
Which was exactly nobody. No one said that. What was said by everyone except you, is that it's a last resort when all else has failed. You proposed it as a solution far earlier in the process than it belongs, and that's what is being disagreed with.
The sequence of steps you proposed (DBCC repairs run 3 times, et al) aren't based on any standard procedure. They may have worked for you once, but it'll have been along the lines of laying on hands curing plague. If it happened once, that doesn't make it a recommended method.
What Gail outlined is standard procedure. It's what a DBA should do in this case. What you recommended will cause more problems than it will solve. Not because you recommended recovering data from a database in Emergency mode, but because of where in the procedure you placed that recommendation, and because you recommended against checking the error logs. (Per your own statement, looking in error logs takes you several hours, ignoring your hyperbole about 15-20 years. That just indicates incompetence/ignorance. Those can be remedied with education and experience, but only if you undertake to do so.)
Don't try to spin and twist your way out of those claims. You made them. Learn from the mistake, don't try to justify and perpetuate it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 16, 2010 at 4:29 pm
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
Elliott W (2/16/2010)
Before you get into a dander any further. I have a couple questions, has this actually happened to you and how did you solve it? On reflection was that the right way or did you get lucky?My point is and will continue to be that regardless of what the original poster had already done, the right answer was STILL to step back and determine WHY he had the problem.
I (unfortunately) have had this happen, the logs clearly showed a problem where a database file was not available and was caused by a LUN being offline, once that was resolved the problem was VERY easy to solve, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't look at the logs. This is just one example..
If I may offer a suggestion. Just stop. Drop this issue altogether. Move on.
If LUN went offline server team would have told you in first place, i am not against checking SQL error logs in first place, I don't agree with those who said you cannot extract data if database is set in Emergency mode.
EnjoY!
I think you need to re-read that thread.
The first comment made was made to get an understanding of what you meant.
Comments after that were made as an assertion that extracting data in Emergency mode should be the last thing done. The point being made for that was that the real issue should be found first before spending a lot of time doing something that may not be necessary.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 16, 2010 at 4:35 pm
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
RBarryYoung (2/16/2010)
tstaker (2/16/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (2/16/2010)
I don't get the impression that he is backing down at all from his position. He says he agrees, but I don't get the impression that he truly does with his parting shot.I observe the forums more than post. I'm only butting in with my .02 right now because a rare thought occurred to me reading that thread. Maybe he's giving bad advice and being so adamant because he likes to stir the pot and wants this type of energy from us? Are there really DBA's out there that bad?
Possible, but I don't think so in this case.
That kind of person is a "Troll" and they are not hard to spot once you know what to look for. This fellow was just engaging in aggressive "Face-Saving": he post's strong advice, some other folks embarrass him by firmly pointing out that he is flat-out wrong, and rather than admit it (the best behavior), or even just slinking away (what most folks would do), his injured ego compels him to try and salvage some kind of advantage from the engagement, which just makes it worse.
It's not that uncommon behavior, and if I'm honest about it, I'd have to admit that I've been on the wrong side of this more than once in my life. Once you get your dander up, you lose good sense and then it's just a matter of how long it will take before you can pull yourself back to your senses and realize "I'm really digging a deep hole for myself here, I should just shut-up now." Having friends you can trust helps with this last part. 🙂
I learnt how to control my EGO when i was 18, It is unfortunate that those who never encountered the issue started to make suggestion follow Gail 's instruction because they didn't have anything to say 😛
EnjoY!
Even if someone did do that, which you have no reason to believe except rescuing your ego from your mouth (keyboard in this case), then I can say with absolute certainty that recommending someone follow Gail's advice on this subject shows significant wisdom. If a brand new DBA did nothing but follow Gail's advice, they'd be doing something smart just in that.
And what makes you think people like me on that thread haven't made a career of rescuing suspect databases? For all you know, people pay me thousands of dollars per day just to do that. I haven't and they don't, but the honest point is, you don't know how many databases anyone here has rescued. Making up lies to defend yourself is something five-year-olds do.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 16, 2010 at 4:36 pm
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
RBarryYoung (2/16/2010)
tstaker (2/16/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (2/16/2010)
I learnt how to control my EGO when i was 18, It is unfortunate that those who never encountered the issue started to make suggestion follow Gail 's instruction because they didn't have anything to say 😛
EnjoY!
It is true that many times you will encounter somebody in the forums seconding or approving "so and so's" suggestion. The reason is simple. It is what they would have done and nothing more needs to be suggested until further information is gathered. It is all a part of the process. The relevance of whether 1 person would do something versus 3 people saying that is the best thing to do carries a little more weight in some scenarios. It isn't that we don't have our own thoughts or abilities, and we don't follow blindly. It is that we have come to an agreement that we understand the better methods for arriving at the goal. If there is a better way and somebody can challenge that with good evidence - then we, as DBAs, are more than willing to accept that.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 16, 2010 at 4:39 pm
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
Elliott W (2/16/2010)
Alvin Ramard (2/16/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (2/16/2010)
I don't get the impression that he is backing down at all from his position. He says he agrees, but I don't get the impression that he truly does with his parting shot.It sounded to me like he realized he was losing the argument and was walking away with whatever pride he still had left.
Almost time for a drink. I'll buy the first round.
Not sure there was a lot of pride left, he took quite a beating. I don't think he agrees either, but oh well.
I am ready if you all want to take part in one round discussion, most of you didn't read the posting completely that poster had already set the database to emergency mode.
EnjoY!
Dude, seriously, do not do this.
I made my response a few posts back before I read this, so I hope you will see it as an honest statement and good advice. Step back and let someone else take point on this.
And in my 35 years of experience I have found that emergencies are exceptionally bad places to learn.
This issue that most of have on this matter is not whether someone made a 100% correct response to a random question, it's that this particular kind of question does require a 100% correct answer. So even though I may know enough to give an 80% correct answer, that is not nearly enough in this case. And that is why most of us would not answer this question, except to say "Call Microsoft".
Gail can answer this kind of question because she can give a 100% correct answer oon this subject. I think that most people on this site would put her right up there after Paul Randal on this subject. And if you want I can go get him and ask him to confirm that Gail was right.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
February 16, 2010 at 4:40 pm
GSquared (2/16/2010)
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
Elliott W (2/16/2010)
Before you get into a dander any further. I have a couple questions, has this actually happened to you and how did you solve it? On reflection was that the right way or did you get lucky?My point is and will continue to be that regardless of what the original poster had already done, the right answer was STILL to step back and determine WHY he had the problem.
I (unfortunately) have had this happen, the logs clearly showed a problem where a database file was not available and was caused by a LUN being offline, once that was resolved the problem was VERY easy to solve, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't look at the logs. This is just one example..
If I may offer a suggestion. Just stop. Drop this issue altogether. Move on.
If LUN went offline server team would have told you in first place, i am not against checking SQL error logs in first place, I don't agree with those who said you cannot extract data if database is set in Emergency mode.
EnjoY!
Which was exactly nobody. No one said that. What was said by everyone except you, is that it's a last resort when all else has failed. You proposed it as a solution far earlier in the process than it belongs, and that's what is being disagreed with.
The sequence of steps you proposed (DBCC repairs run 3 times, et al) aren't based on any standard procedure. They may have worked for you once, but it'll have been along the lines of laying on hands curing plague. If it happened once, that doesn't make it a recommended method.
What Gail outlined is standard procedure. It's what a DBA should do in this case. What you recommended will cause more problems than it will solve. Not because you recommended recovering data from a database in Emergency mode, but because of where in the procedure you placed that recommendation, and because you recommended against checking the error logs. (Per your own statement, looking in error logs takes you several hours, ignoring your hyperbole about 15-20 years. That just indicates incompetence/ignorance. Those can be remedied with education and experience, but only if you undertake to do so.)
Don't try to spin and twist your way out of those claims. You made them. Learn from the mistake, don't try to justify and perpetuate it.
The poster had already Set Database to Emergency Mode, he did not leave database suspect state, so you will go and set the database back to suspect state? As always i am not against checking error logs in first place.
EnjoY!
February 16, 2010 at 4:48 pm
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
RBarryYoung (2/16/2010)
Possible, but I don't think so in this case.That kind of person is a "Troll" and they are not hard to spot once you know what to look for. This fellow was just engaging in aggressive "Face-Saving": he post's strong advice, some other folks embarrass him by firmly pointing out that he is flat-out wrong, and rather than admit it (the best behavior), or even just slinking away (what most folks would do), his injured ego compels him to try and salvage some kind of advantage from the engagement, which just makes it worse.
It's not that uncommon behavior, and if I'm honest about it, I'd have to admit that I've been on the wrong side of this more than once in my life. Once you get your dander up, you lose good sense and then it's just a matter of how long it will take before you can pull yourself back to your senses and realize "I'm really digging a deep hole for myself here, I should just shut-up now." Having friends you can trust helps with this last part. 🙂
I learnt how to control my EGO when i was 18, It is unfortunate that those who never encountered the issue started to make suggestion follow Gail 's instruction because they didn't have anything to say
I have never known any man who got control of their EGOs before the age of 28, and most go to the grave without doing so. Though I have known plenty who claimed to have. And you do realize that this very statement disproves that claim? Seriously, pull the horns back in, there is no upside to this.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
February 16, 2010 at 5:00 pm
RBarryYoung (2/16/2010)
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
Elliott W (2/16/2010)
Alvin Ramard (2/16/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (2/16/2010)
I don't get the impression that he is backing down at all from his position. He says he agrees, but I don't get the impression that he truly does with his parting shot.It sounded to me like he realized he was losing the argument and was walking away with whatever pride he still had left.
Almost time for a drink. I'll buy the first round.
Not sure there was a lot of pride left, he took quite a beating. I don't think he agrees either, but oh well.
I am ready if you all want to take part in one round discussion, most of you didn't read the posting completely that poster had already set the database to emergency mode.
EnjoY!
Dude, seriously, do not do this.
I made my response a few posts back before I read this, so I hope you will see it as an honest statement and good advice. Step back and let someone else take point on this.
To everyone else, actually, I will freely stipulate that there are many DBAs who very well could have done those steps, simply because they may not have known any better. As we all know, way too many of us became DBAs through the unintentional route, and though after many years we might now be pretty good at it, there were still those many years when we were just doing the best we knew how, but without the training or the experience to do it right.And in my 35 years of experience I have found that emergencies are exceptionally bad places to learn.
GT:This issue that most of have on this matter is not whether someone made a 100% correct response to a random question, it's that this particular kind of question does require a 100% correct answer. So even though I may know enough to give an 80% correct answer, that is not nearly enough in this case. And that is why most of us would not answer this question, except to say "Call Microsoft".
Gail can answer this kind of question because she can give a 100% correct answer oon this subject. I think that most people on this site would put her right up there after Paul Randal on this subject. And if you want I can go get him and ask him to confirm that Gail was right.
Let see what poster has to say, how did he fix this. Many DBA' s who made suggestions to this posting have no idea that they can extract data from database which is set to Emergency mode, once Gails said it is possible to extract data form database, but should be last option. Then these DBA's started to talk other than subject. I believe, It doesn't matter if you have 100 years without actions, sitting there and telling follow his or her instruction, it better to find other job not a DBA.
EnjoY!
February 16, 2010 at 5:07 pm
I want a Hippopotamus for Christmas
Only a Hippopotamus will do...
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 16, 2010 at 5:10 pm
RBarryYoung (2/16/2010)
GT-897544 (2/16/2010)
RBarryYoung (2/16/2010)
Possible, but I don't think so in this case.That kind of person is a "Troll" and they are not hard to spot once you know what to look for. This fellow was just engaging in aggressive "Face-Saving": he post's strong advice, some other folks embarrass him by firmly pointing out that he is flat-out wrong, and rather than admit it (the best behavior), or even just slinking away (what most folks would do), his injured ego compels him to try and salvage some kind of advantage from the engagement, which just makes it worse.
It's not that uncommon behavior, and if I'm honest about it, I'd have to admit that I've been on the wrong side of this more than once in my life. Once you get your dander up, you lose good sense and then it's just a matter of how long it will take before you can pull yourself back to your senses and realize "I'm really digging a deep hole for myself here, I should just shut-up now." Having friends you can trust helps with this last part. 🙂
I learnt how to control my EGO when i was 18, It is unfortunate that those who never encountered the issue started to make suggestion follow Gail 's instruction because they didn't have anything to say
I have never known any man who got control of their EGOs before the age of 28, and most go to the grave without doing so. Though I have known plenty who claimed to have. And you do realize that this very statement disproves that claim? Seriously, pull the horns back in, there is no upside to this.
You guys side tracked the subject and started to talk about my EGO in other postings i know how control my EGO, i like challenging things, let's have discussion on subject.
It is like Spectator watching a NFL game screaming throw there, run this way etc. You have no idea how the game is on field.
EnjoY!
February 16, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Don't want a doll, no dinky Tinker Toy
I want a hippopotamus to play with and enjoy...
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 16, 2010 at 5:27 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (2/16/2010)
Don't want a doll, no dinky Tinker ToyI want a hippopotamus to play with and enjoy...
What kind of stupid post is this anyway?? Hippopotamus? Have you lost your mind Jason?
Hula hoop, man, hula hoop. Get me my hula hoop!!!! I just want a hula hoop!!!!
😀 :hehe: 😛
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
February 16, 2010 at 5:29 pm
I want a hippopotamus for Christmas
I don't think Santa Claus will mind, do you? ...
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 16, 2010 at 5:37 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (2/16/2010)
I want a hippopotamus for ChristmasI don't think Santa Claus will mind, do you? ...
I think Lynn wants one too. 😀
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
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