Are the posted questions getting worse?
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The reason some majorities get offended about minorities supporting their own is often because they are in denial about the reasons that minorities feel the need to support their own.
Its sort of like all the backlash about critical race theory, opponents like to insist that systemic racism isn't real whereas proponents differ on that point.
I find that often in these sorts of conflicts its helpful to not take sides, but rather try to understand both sides and their relationship to the conflict in consideration.
Why don't we do that, instead of picking a side in any given conflict, joining that side, and then yelling at the other side? Why don't we focust on both sides and the conflict that separates them?
- Steve Jones - SSC Editor wrote:
Is holding a conference focused on black/Latin groups discriminatory? I suppose it could be seen that way if it only allowed black or Latin attendees/speakers/etc. In the description of the event, I find no mention of this. In fact, the only place I see this as being discriminatory is "We are also creating a special stage at the Conference this year dedicated to founders/Entrepreneurs of color. " I assume this means no white, and perhaps not Asian, people are on the special stage.
You must have a different way of reading things. I only look at what is written on these types of things. Here's the picture from the site that contains my original observation...
I think this type of thing causes unintended consequences and that's what my point was. If no one else does, opinion noted.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) - Jeff Moden wrote:Steve Jones - SSC Editor wrote:
Is holding a conference focused on black/Latin groups discriminatory? I suppose it could be seen that way if it only allowed black or Latin attendees/speakers/etc. In the description of the event, I find no mention of this. In fact, the only place I see this as being discriminatory is "We are also creating a special stage at the Conference this year dedicated to founders/Entrepreneurs of color. " I assume this means no white, and perhaps not Asian, people are on the special stage.
You must have a different way of reading things. I only look at what is written on these types of things. Here's the picture from the site that contains my original observation...
I think this type of thing causes unintended consequences and that's what my point was. If no one else does, opinion noted.
I'm not offended, heck post a similar picture for White tech professionals so we can compare the two.
edit:
I don't want to unnecessarily overwork Jeff here, so I think I can offer a theory and skip some of this stuff. When I compare the two groups, the difference I personally see is that one group seems to try to equalize opportunity whereas the other group seems to try to maintain their superior access to opportunities. Would anybody disagree with that?
I'm sure there's an argument to be made that in fact both groups have equal opportunities but how do the actual numbers look? Again, are there any disparities?
I'm certainly open to entertain opposing viewpoints. I'm nothing if not self aware of how many times I've been wrong LOL
- x wrote:
Its sort of like all the backlash about critical race theory, opponents like to insist that systemic racism isn't real whereas proponents differ on that point.
Except the point of those discussions is how to fix the system, not how can a separate community be formed.
- ZZartin wrote:x wrote:
Its sort of like all the backlash about critical race theory, opponents like to insist that systemic racism isn't real whereas proponents differ on that point.
Except the point of those discussions is how to fix the system, not how can a separate community be formed.
Well I remember the civil rights movement and during many of those marches I recall that whites were allowed to march, whether in support or opposition. I get that I'm the sort of guy who would have marched in support and "other folks" may have preferred to march in opposition.
The two groups I see today seem to have different ideas on whether the "system needs to be fixed" or not. I think one group thinks there are some disparities that can be remediated, and the other group thinks there are some disparities that need strengthened.
Aside from all that, I'm personally embarrassed for Jeff that he would post this, but then again I'm a bit embarrassed myself for how much I love gawking at trainwrecks some folks cause for themselves hahaha
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Please don't take it upon yourself to be personally embarrassed for me. You've take everything I've stated and twisted it to mean the exact opposite of what I mean.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
The image is for black professionals, as is the title. I think that some of us have tried to explain that going along with the existing status quo, or wishing that there would be no issues with race/color/gender/etc., hasn't worked. If you continue to view that image or title as discriminatory or exclusionary for white people, and that's the unintended consequence, I'm not sure if I can explain it better.
This isn't a make things worse or bring others down. This is a bring everyone else up.
I, and others, have addressed why we think this isn't discriminatory or exclusionary. I think we have provided a rational basis for this. If anyone continues to say this isn't fair, even, equitable, inclusive, etc., then I can only think you willfully do not wish to accept there are problems in the world that need addressing and this is one way to do so.
I would welcome other suggestions on how to do so, but I don't think "everyone should just get along and act like we're all equal" is one that makes any sense.
- Steve Jones - SSC Editor wrote:
If you continue to view that image or title as discriminatory or exclusionary for white people, and that's the unintended consequence, I'm not sure if I can explain it better.
Your are also missing the point, Steve. So, never mind. It's not worth continuing the discussion so I won't except to say that you've taken me incorrectly and I'm not the bad guy that you think I am. Seriously misunderstood, yes.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
My 2 cents as a White male but also as a Mexican in USA.
When we first moved to the USA it was a huge shock on how there were groups for everything: Blacks, Latin, Asian, Women, etc. That's something we rarely face in Mexico (and Latin America) because we have plenty of history of mixing different cultures, which is quite different from USA that has less time without forced segregation.
I do support the need for organizations like Women In Tech, because their goal is clearly to support Women to incorporate in a male dominated industry. I also believe that some organizations (like Black Is Tech) need to work better on their way to send a message to everyone. A different letter changes the meaning so much of the message. It goes from looking for inclusion to something else (is it that Blacks are supposed to be a synonym of Technology? I don't fully understand). I've discussed with some friends that many organizations looking for real equal rights have a problem with effectively delivering their message starting with their organizations and campaings' names.
Now, there's a bigger problem. Black Is Tech conference states that it's a conference for Black and LatinX professionals. However, there are 2 problems. The minor one is that the X shouldn't be there (it makes zero sense for an actual Latin American) . The second, and real problem, is that there is only one Latin last name in the speakers page. It's also from someone with a name in English that is also Black. Is it really a conference for Latin professionals or are they just trying to get more attendees with that phrase? To compare this, you can go to the Team page from Women In Tech to find several men in there (once again showing their efforts on being inclusive not to pursue dominance).
Lastly, I understand Jeff's point of view. These kind of conferences and organizations shouldn't exist because they shouldn't be needed. However, these are needed to let people know that they can be anything they want to if they work hard enough. Most problems these days happen on minorities not being confident enough or interested enough to actually try (There's also the huge cost of higher education in the country, but that's an entirely different topic).
I'm probably making lots of generalizations and mistakes, but it's just an opinion.
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I was interested in the term "latinx" so I googled it and it makes sense on why its used because its an attempt to be inclusive, given the more gendered nature of some of the languages, thats my uneducated take given what I've read. Its true that it isn't as popular a term as I thought based on what I've read.
Again, I'm interested in the "whys" with this sort of stuff. Why do these groups exist? Why are others offended that they exist? For these groups, what sort of ideas do they espouse? I think its easy for us IT folks to find a simple contradiction and offer it up like I think Jeff did, but is it really a contradiction? I posted my theory on why I believe it isn't but I suppose my theory is going to sound accusatory and maybe it is in a way. Theres simple models of reality, and then there's reality, and whatever difference between the models of reality and actual reality needs to correct the models or at least expose them as being incomplete, because reality is already accurate by definition lol
But its also the case that we can probably never accurately model reality completely so by definition if we offer up a model for examination, we have to EXPECT innaccuracies, the best we can hope for is that these models we create can be increasingly useful. I'm finding Jeff for instance just doesn't accept my enhancement of his model and why a more detailed model can explain away the contradiction present in the original model but thats fine.
Still, we are lucky we have the freedom to offer up our models, our explanations, and let the models contest each other. There's a big trend nowadays with some societies that this sort of "contest of ideas" so to speak have been deemed undesireable. You get issued your "state sponsored model of reality", and comparing it to actual reality is verboten.
Heh I'm probably trying to convey something without the actual talent to type it.
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You have your own odel and that's fine. What I took exception to was your passive aggressive and highly judgemental mouth saying such condescending things like you being personalty embarrassed for me. If you want to discuss something, you need to stop making such passive aggressive yet still ad hominess attacks.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) - Luis Cazares wrote:
My 2 cents as a White male but also as a Mexican in USA.
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Thanks for the thoughts Luis.
I appreciate that the US seems more segregated than other places. I think we tend to have more heterogeneous mixing than many other places. I've never lived or traveled much in Central/South America, but my limited time in Mexico seemed more homogeneous than the US. I know there are lots of cultures there, and people from many places, but they seem to mostly be or some Latin origin. Probably my ignorance and lack of observation.
LatinX is more a US term to include all people from that region, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either. I'm not sure what to think of it, but finding a way to include a large group makes sense to me. I think Latin is fine, as Asian includes people from Japan to Malaysia, but I may be missing something.
I do think this conference may be trying to include another group with the black demographic, and I do agree that only having one apparently Latin speaker makes that seem like a marketing rather than a social move. Maybe they're trying to grow? I'm willing to accept their imperfection in the pursuit of helping others grow.
I do think we need these groups, conferences, meetings, discussions, etc. Many people see the world from their perspective, which is inherently limited. They don't see the struggle or challenges. Plenty of us that post here have had success. We can't others see the same possibilities? Why don't they write/speak or improve their own careers?
My view is that role models and encouragement are needed. While I might think I did a lot of this on my own, as I examine my past, I see that I had lots of support from others. I had opportunities come my way. I had luck. I had someone believe in my or give me a chance. I also worked hard, but that wasn't the only factor
I regularly try to encourage others to write or speak publicly, or even inside an organization to improve their career. There's a bit of a leap of faith for someone to take that step. They do need to not only see others do it, but also get the encouragement to believe in themselves. I see this in kids as well, and I realize that there is a balance to pushing, encouraging, supporting failure, and teaching someone to become strong an independent.
To me, these groups provide some of that parenting support that groups have lacked. I think the historical way that majority groups have limited opportunity for minority groups requires this support for lots of people to succeed. Any individual can succeed as an outlier. To life all the boats, lots of women need to provide a role model for lots of others. Lots of blacks need to provide a role model for lots of blacks. Lots of Latin people need to succeed to provide the role model for lots of Latin people, etc.
Mostly I just want to see more people encouraging others.
- Jeff Moden wrote:
You have your own odel and that's fine. What I took exception to was your passive aggressive and highly judgemental mouth saying such condescending things like you being personalty embarrassed for me. If you want to discuss something, you need to stop making such passive aggressive yet still ad hominess attacks.
I don't know if I should take posting advice from a guy who would post what you did.
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Being human colour blind and religiously agnostic, this whole conversation does not make sense to me
😎
- Steve Jones - SSC Editor wrote:
Eirikur has an interesting post above. How to interpret these words. I'll add a couple of thoughts.
Prejudice
I view this ...
Thank you Steve,
Unfortunately the literal meaning of those words are not the implied meanings, as a non English speaker, the level of ambiguity baffles me, but at least I'm pleased that you got my point!
😎
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