September 9, 2021 at 3:35 am
I view some events like in a bit different light. They serve as inspiration for others to see and believe they can be successful. I doubt many presenting in these events used their physical attributes as a main vehicle to get them to where they are today. Likely you would hear about hard work and struggles that led to their achievements.
To me, someone who just by looking at you, labels you as a racist or sexist, needs to stop and look in the mirror. It is not looks or gender that determines this - but your actions. Just like someone looking at Steven Hawking and judging his intelligence.
September 9, 2021 at 8:00 am
I view some events like in a bit different light. They serve as inspiration for others to see and believe they can be successful. I doubt many presenting in these events used their physical attributes as a main vehicle to get them to where they are today. Likely you would hear about hard work and struggles that led to their achievements.
To me, someone who just by looking at you, labels you as a racist or sexist, needs to stop and look in the mirror. It is not looks or gender that determines this - but your actions. Just like someone looking at Steven Hawking and judging his intelligence.
That's my whole point. Even the inside excludes races (not just white) in the very first sentence.
The Conference for Black and LatinX Tech Professionals and Entrepreneurs.
The way I look at it, is if you want people to stop being racist and sexist, then people need to stop doing it themselves. It's a double standard to the max.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 9, 2021 at 8:36 am
Can someone tell me why this isn't horribly racially prejudiced?
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/black-is-tech-conference-2021-tickets-149570987851
Can I open a "White Is Tech" conference without any ramifications? I never would, though. THAT would be racist.
Can you tell me why it's OK to be a "woman owned company" but not a "man owned company"?
Can you tell me why it's ok to have a group called "Women In Technology" group but not ok to have a "Men in Technology Group?
There are hundreds of other such examples. If we really do want to stop the racism and the sexism and a whole bunch of other things, can we all stop with the racism, sexism, and a whole bunch of other things? I don't hate anyone be but the folks having events like this are are teaching people racism, sexism, and whole bunch of other things quite by example.
The problem is that women and PoCs don't have an equal seat at the table. Men is Tech and White is Tech is the systematic default. Everything supports CIS White Men, very few resources support anyone else. We need these types of conferences and groups to support us and share these resources and hopefully show that we are just as good as everyone else in order to get those equal seats at the table.
So, no. It's not racist. And Women in Technology is not sexist. We're trying to find space in the Good Old Boys' network. Until that happens, these groups and conferences are necessary for training, for networking, for confidence, for everything.
September 9, 2021 at 10:08 am
The problem is that women and PoCs don't have an equal seat at the table. Men is Tech and White is Tech is the systematic default. Everything supports CIS White Men, very few resources support anyone else. We need these types of conferences and groups to support us and share these resources and hopefully show that we are just as good as everyone else in order to get those equal seats at the table.
So, no. It's not racist. And Women in Technology is not sexist. We're trying to find space in the Good Old Boys' network. Until that happens, these groups and conferences are necessary for training, for networking, for confidence, for everything.
Generalising your argument:
It's OK to discriminate, as long as the one discriminating is in the minority.
Are you comfortable with this?
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Martin Rees
You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.
Stan Laurel
September 9, 2021 at 10:54 am
Completely missing the point, Phil.
It's not discrimination. You are not being forbidden from attending these conferences. You are not incapable of getting jobs or networking because of your gender or the color of your skin.
Honestly, it's no wonder racism and sexism is systematic and institutionalized when you and people like you feel threatened by the idea that women and POCs are working to right that balance by finding people who will support them. If you want to be part of that conversation, PLEASE DO BE. But don't accuse us of discrimination because we're trying our darnest to talk to each other, support each other, and find ways into the door and chairs.
September 9, 2021 at 11:08 am
Completely missing the point, Phil.
It's not discrimination. You are not being forbidden from attending these conferences. You are not incapable of getting jobs or networking because of your gender or the color of your skin.
Honestly, it's no wonder racism and sexism is systematic and institutionalized when you and people like you feel threatened by the idea that women and POCs are working to right that balance by finding people who will support them. If you want to be part of that conversation, PLEASE DO BE. But don't accuse us of discrimination because we're trying our darnest to talk to each other, support each other, and find ways into the door and chairs.
I was hoping for a rational discussion, yet you have attacked me personally, without knowing me and without evidence.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Martin Rees
You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.
Stan Laurel
September 9, 2021 at 11:21 am
Phil Parkin wrote:Generalising your argument:
It's OK to discriminate, as long as the one discriminating is in the minority.
Are you comfortable with this?
Congratulations Phil. After years of silent lurking, you managed to write what was needed to make me dig up my password and fight this new interface.
Etymologically "discrimination" just means "making a difference". Nothing wrong with that. I hope you don't expect me to treat you the same I treat my wife. Or the neighbour children. But in modern language, and even in dictionaries, the meaning has shifted to (paraphrasing) "making an unjustified difference".
Microsoft is fully justified when they don't allow you to attend their board meetings. That's not discrimination. You are treated differently but it's justified. You're not on the board after all.
A movie director who is casting for the part of Mick Jagger in their new movie about the Rolling Stones is justified in requiring those who apply to be white males. Just as they would require black females only for the role of Aretha Franklin in their next movie.
When I am denied the opportunity to vote for the US president, it's not discrimination. The different treatment is justified because I am not a US citizen. But when Steve Jones would be denied the opportunity to vote in that same election, it WOULD be discrimination because being a person of colour is NOT a good justification for that difference.
You want to attack organizers of tech events that target women, people of colour, or other under-represented groups? Then better come prepared with strong arguments to convince the world that their justification is invalid. (Brandie already addressed what this justification is so I won't repeat it).
You want to set up an event for white dudes only? Cool, go ahead. But better make sure that you know what to answer when people ask you "why is an event for this specific group needed?" and "why can you not achieve the same goal through an event that is open to all?"
(Oh, and a final remark ... I've been to many Women In Tech events. They're actually not exclusively for women at all. Most organizers are very happy when men come to attend, to listen and learn. But do keep in mind that "listen" and "learn" are the operative words here.)
September 9, 2021 at 11:31 am
Phil Parkin wrote:Generalising your argument:
It's OK to discriminate, as long as the one discriminating is in the minority.
Are you comfortable with this?
Congratulations Phil. After years of silent lurking, you managed to write what was needed to make me dig up my password and fight this new interface.
Etymologically "discrimination" just means "making a difference". Nothing wrong with that. I hope you don't expect me to treat you the same I treat my wife. Or the neighbour children. But in modern language, and even in dictionaries, the meaning has shifted to (paraphrasing) "making an unjustified difference".
Microsoft is fully justified when they don't allow you to attend their board meetings. That's not discrimination. You are treated differently but it's justified. You're not on the board after all. A movie director who is casting for the part of Mick Jagger in their new movie about the Rolling Stones is justified in requiring those who apply to be white males. Just as they would require black females only for the role of Aretha Franklin in their next movie. When I am denied the opportunity to vote for the US president, it's not discrimination. The different treatment is justified because I am not a US citizen. But when Steve Jones would be denied the opportunity to vote in that same election, it WOULD be discrimination because being a person of colour is NOT a good justification for that difference.
You want to attack organizers of tech events that target women, people of colour, or other under-represented groups? Then better come prepared with strong arguments to convince the world that their justification is invalid. (Brandie already addressed what this justification is so I won't repeat it). You want to set up an event for white dudes only? Cool, go ahead. But better make sure that you know what to answer when people ask you "why is an event for this specific group needed?" and "why can you not achieve the same goal through an event that is open to all?"
(Oh, and a final remark ... I've been to many Women In Tech events. They're actually not exclusively for women at all. Most organizers are very happy when men come to attend, to listen and learn. But do keep in mind that "listen" and "learn" are the operative words here.)
Hugo, thank you for the measured response.
My original post was based on the assumption that people who were not part of the target group would not be welcomed to attend. My assumption was wrong and I am therefore happy to accept that my generalisation was flawed.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Martin Rees
You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.
Stan Laurel
September 9, 2021 at 1:28 pm
Completely missing the point, Phil.
It's not discrimination. You are not being forbidden from attending these conferences. You are not incapable of getting jobs or networking because of your gender or the color of your skin.
Honestly, it's no wonder racism and sexism is systematic and institutionalized when you and people like you feel threatened by the idea that women and POCs are working to right that balance by finding people who will support them. If you want to be part of that conversation, PLEASE DO BE. But don't accuse us of discrimination because we're trying our darnest to talk to each other, support each other, and find ways into the door and chairs.
You're mistaken there, Brandi. I don't feel threatened at all by any of what goes on. I'm just amazed that people operate as they do especially when it comes to things like that conference they cited. It actually concerns me just the opposite of the way it appears you're taking me.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 9, 2021 at 1:50 pm
You want to attack organizers of tech events that target women, people of colour, or other under-represented groups? Then better come prepared with strong arguments to convince the world that their justification is invalid. (Brandie already addressed what this justification is so I won't repeat it). You want to set up an event for white dudes only? Cool, go ahead. But better make sure that you know what to answer when people ask you "why is an event for this specific group needed?" and "why can you not achieve the same goal through an event that is open to all?
My post certainly wasn't meant as an attack. It was meant to express a major bit of confusion on my part because it seems that people are saying one thing that they find horribly wrong (and I seriously agree... it is) and then seemingly doing that very same thing themselves and that seems to be counter productive to the very good causes of diversity, inclusion, and a bunch of other related terms.
Heh... and I certainly don't discriminate. I wake up in the morning hating everyone and then make daily exceptions from there. 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 9, 2021 at 1:58 pm
Completely missing the point, Phil.
It's not discrimination. You are not being forbidden from attending these conferences. You are not incapable of getting jobs or networking because of your gender or the color of your skin.
Honestly, it's no wonder racism and sexism is systematic and institutionalized when you and people like you feel threatened by the idea that women and POCs are working to right that balance by finding people who will support them. If you want to be part of that conversation, PLEASE DO BE. But don't accuse us of discrimination because we're trying our darnest to talk to each other, support each other, and find ways into the door and chairs.
This seems like more of a company and or general cultural problem than a tech industry problem. Obviously my experience is biased as a white male but I've found the tech industry generally accepting of most people regardless, outside of specific companies that have issues as a company as a whole.
September 9, 2021 at 6:32 pm
My 5Cents on the conversation:
Just learned two new words today, not certain how to interpret those?
😎
Prejudice
1. Prejudice can be an affective feeling towards a person based on their perceived group membership. The word is often used to refer to a preconceived evaluation or classification of another person based
Discrimination
1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, sex, or disability.
2. recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
September 9, 2021 at 6:35 pm
Everyone,
I know this can be a contentious topic and provoke emotions. Please be respectful in disagreement and avoid personal attacks.
If you mis-speak or offend someone, as we are all prone to do at times, please apologize and move on.
For the record, I have not been denied the right to vote, though that wasn't necessarily a bad example on Hugo's part. Likely plenty of people in my county would prefer I note vote, or perhaps would like to find a way to prevent that.
September 9, 2021 at 7:08 pm
Everyone,
I know this can be a contentious topic and provoke emotions. Please be respectful in disagreement and avoid personal attacks.
If you mis-speak or offend someone, as we are all prone to do at times, please apologize and move on.
For the record, I have not been denied the right to vote, though that wasn't necessarily a bad example on Hugo's part. Likely plenty of people in my county would prefer I note vote, or perhaps would like to find a way to prevent that.
As one says in "proper" English: ascoltare vale piu di tante parole
😎
who is sinless cast the first stone
September 9, 2021 at 7:22 pm
Eirikur has an interesting post above. How to interpret these words. I'll add a couple of thoughts.
Prejudice
I view this as judging someone without a rational basis for doing so. This might be based on a stereotype, a past impression of a different person/group, or just learned behavior from your past where you think that a generality applies to the specific. Is someone wearing a suit and vest haughty and pretentious? Are they successful and wealthy/rich? Are they worthy of respect?
I use those examples as I last saw Eirikur in a suit at a SQL Saturday. I knew him from here, but there are many impressions I could have drawn from his image, both positive and negative. Those are pre-judgments I might make, or anyone might make.
To be clear, I enjoyed my time with Eirikur and hope we can do it again somewhere.
Discrimination
Choosing to treat someone or something different than another. My wife prefers mountain grass hay to alfalfa most of the time. She discriminates in her purchases. This could also be that I give more treats to one dog than another. Maybe I like one better, or maybe one is overweight and should get less. Or has a weak stomach and I don't like mopping and cleaning floors.
This could be a positive or negative.
Black in Tech Conference
Is holding a conference focused on black/Latin groups discriminatory? I suppose it could be seen that way if it only allowed black or Latin attendees/speakers/etc. In the description of the event, I find no mention of this. In fact, the only place I see this as being discriminatory is "We are also creating a special stage at the Conference this year dedicated to founders/Entrepreneurs of color. " I assume this means no white, and perhaps not Asian, people are on the special stage.
My view is that pointing out that you couldn't have a "White in Tech Conference" is both true and also naive of the state of the world. The white, predominantly male, people dominate and overwhelm the world in many ways. They also have explicitly, or implicitly, denied and prevented plenty of non white male people from being a part of events in different ways. Not always, and not in every event, but it has happened. There is plenty of evidence of how white male individuals and groups have not allowed the same opportunities at scale as those for other white males.
That doesn't mean I think the black technology pros, or the Latin ones, or women, or any minority group in technology should be allowed to prevent white males from being a part of events. It does mean they can create events that help them bond and find ways to create their own success in the world.
I feel that implying this furthers discrimination ignores the fact that plenty of discrimination exists today, there has been plenty of time for all of us to treat all others equally, and that hasn't solved much. There are still plenty less opportunities, and indeed, less comfort for women and other minorities to participate in these events.
It's very easy to view the world from your own window and think that others have the same view. It's a very human thing to expect that we often share experiences. It's how we connect and bond. It's why I enjoy the company of many of you when I have the chance to sit and chat.
However, it's also not really the same for all of us. While you might try to treat everyone the same, many others do not. The world is full of people that don't want to treat others the same. Whether because of accent, height, weight, attractiveness, the technology they use, their accent, or anything else. Certainly, skin color is a way people treat each other differently.
Pointing out the conference sounds discriminatory isn't necessarily a personal attack on me as a person of color. Pointing out the reasons this exists isn't an attack on any white male.
If I've learned anything in life, it's that the world is incredibly bigger than I can imagine, and it's way more complex than I'd like it to be. This is especially true of societal interactions.
We have had poor behavior towards groups by other groups throughout human history. That will continue. Trying to reduce the impact and growth of this, and move towards treating everyone equally is where most of us want to go. It's easy to point out that anything other than just doing that today is wrong; it just doesn't help us move in that direction.
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