Are the posted questions getting worse?
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I'll agree with Gail. Unless you experience this or see it, you don't think this exists and people treat others fairly.
That doesn't happen all the time. I don't know if it's a majority of the time or a minority, but it happens. This isn't identity politics, which has some connotation of a person choosing to hide behind some characteristic and grouping together. This is a problem in our industry, and in many others.
- Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Friday, April 27, 2018 11:50 AM
In my experience, a minority of the time, usually small stuff
It still happens. I had the 'pleasure' of listening to one of the attendees at SQLBits this year tell me (in a 'talk to a 5-year old' tone) how difficult it is to get accepted to speak at large events. (I was eating lunch).
It's fortunately been ages since I've been asked things like where my boyfriend is (at a computer gaming conference, by one of the vendors), or had a conference name badge with "Mr Shaw" written on it (and my father wasn't attending) or similar.Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverabilityWe walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass - GilaMonster - Friday, April 27, 2018 11:44 AM
Gail,
I was referring to a situation where a person was asking a technical question and received negative feedback based solely on their race and/or gender.Looking at each of the three links you provided. All three are essentially op-ed pieces pointing out the fact that the majority of SO members are male and/or the fact that tech in general attracts more males than females. Of course that's going to spark conversation about sexism. That was they set out to do.
I'll go ahead and acknowledge that I didn't read each one, word for word, nor did I read each and every comment but I did read the first 20 or 30 comments from each... What I read looked like perfectly reasonable discussion... especially when we consider the controversial nature of the topic. I certainly didn't see anyone berating or being cruel to the respective authors. For the most part, I saw people making reasonable arguments on both sides.
That's not to say I didn't miss something, so if there's a particular comment (or comments) you want to draw attention to, please let me know. Otherwise, I do plan on going back an rereading each of these when I'm not on the company dime.But if you want a single opinion. There's a reason I don't use a photo as an avatar any longer and don't use my real name as a handle, and that's not just here, and I've been online since almost before there was a web.
All opinions are single opinions... At least the only ones worth having are. Unfortunately, you haven't given me your opinion, you've implied it, but you haven't explicitly stated it. Which means that I cannot comment on it directly without first constructing a strawman. Something that I try not to do.
I assume that you're saying that you've been treated unfairly, online, due to your gender. Obviously, I can't refute that. I only "know" you from here, SQLintheWind and a few YouTube videos, and I can't claim to have read everything that's been said to you or about you.
In that light, I'll say only this... You're one of only 8 people I follow on this forum. I don't follow you and read your posts because you're a woman. I do it because I think you have one of the very best minds in our industry and I learn something new every time you write something. I can also say that I'm not the only one who hold you and your breadth of knowledge in high esteem. - Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Friday, April 27, 2018 11:50 AM
Steve,
I've never claimed that sexism, racism, ageism or any other "ism" doesn't exist. I'm merely suggesting that it isn't the problem that some people make it out to be. I'd argue that, at least in western culture, openly racist/sexist people are actively shunned. They're forced to take
If you, or anyone else, can point to specific examples, I'll be right there with you in condemning them. What I object to is making sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people, simply because they have (or lack) some immutable, physical charismatic. -
And forum ate my reply somehow, so you get the less diplomatic version.
Jason A. Long - Friday, April 27, 2018 1:40 PMWhich is going to be rather hard to find, since SO edits questions and answers aggressively. Any such comment would be edited out within hours.
That said. It is worth listening to people when they describe experiences, especially if they are ones that that you cannot have (my boss was horrified when I described to him how a client had treated me during a meeting. He had been there and hadn't noticed)
I have seen multiple articles, blog posts, twitter threads over the last few months, written by women, describing their experiences with SO (well, the SE network as a whole). Have a look for them, and read then with an open mind (not assuming that it's just 'identity politics' or 'someone who can't cut it in IT whining about being told they can't cut it in IT')Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverabilityWe walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass -
You are welcome to your opinion. You implied that this isn't much of a big deal, but saying most forums are egalitarian. Perhaps most, but that doesn't mean this isn't a significant problem in our culture.
As has been shown many times across the last year with the #metoo movement, plenty of women in our industry, often in the developer area, are treated poorly. We've had plenty of sexism and poor treatment of women at events, and they have been harassed online. There are examples, though perhaps not as easy to find in searching now as I'd like. This has happened in plenty of industries and it's documented by plenty of lawsuits and stories shared by various groups.
Just as you didn't say it didn't exist, how could the statement that
Let’s start with the painful truth:
Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.be the most racist/sexist ever? This doesn't imply everyone does it or it's the most prevalent behavior. It states this happens to too many people. Regardless of whether others may vilify a perpetrator, that's irrelevant. The person experiencing this treatment may not see that, and more importantly, having any statements or attacks exist are a problem for all forums. We deal with some people here and it's a hard, and constant, judgment about what is allowed and what is not. I probably fail more often than I succeed there, but personal attacks are not something we want, and I think SO realizes there is a problem with bro culture. There are certainly passive aggressive and veiled comments that are insulting and degrading to women or other groups.
Pointing that out, isn't racist or sexist, though you may disagree.
- GilaMonster - Friday, April 27, 2018 2:25 PM
Gail,
I neither need nor want a diplomatic version. "Diplomacy" usually translates into condescension anyway...
In any case, please don't take my previous comments as an attempt to diminish any personal experience you may have had. That certainly was not my intent.
Obviously, I don't know the specifics of what was said or done by your client that offended you but you've never struck me as being particularly thin skinned so I'll grant you that it was in fact beyond the scope of an accidental faux pas.
I won't make excuses for that behavior, it's reprehensible.I have no problem listening to people convey their "experiences" but I will always take them for what they are, one persons interpretation of a specific event or set of events. Also, please note that I said "people"... The idea that an individuals "experiences" are somehow worth more or less depending on their gender isn't one that I'm willing to entertain.
As for articles written by women who had negative experiences on SO... I don't doubt that they had a bad SO experience and I'm sure that some have even experienced real deal misogyny. That problem is one of pervasiveness. That is to say, it isn't.
But... for the sake of argument, let's say that it is a pervasive problem. What would you prescribe as a solution?Steve,
My problem with identity politics is that it inevitably results in the exact things it purports to be against. Carving people up and separating them into groups based on immutable physical characteristics is, in my opinion, morally repugnant.
I have absolutely no problem examining specific situations and calling out sexism and/or racism where it's found. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to ask for actual evidence of something before jumping to irrational conclusions. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it.Both,
I'm not looking for conflict...I hold you both in very high regard.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE talking politics, religion and pretty much any other topic that would be deemed off limits in polite dinner conversation...
I just don't want to do it here. I love this forum because it is, for the most part, politics free and I don't want to have a hand in changing that.
If either of you (or anyone else who whats to get in the mix) want to continue the conversation, I'm all about it, just shoot me a pm and I'll get you my email address... -
That problem is one of pervasiveness. That is to say, it isn't.
And how many times does something have to happen before it is 'pervasive'? I'm done, I'm not wasting my time.
I'll just re-phrase something I said earlier.When people talk about things they've experienced, listen to them. especially when it's something you can't experience yourself.
See you guys in a couple months.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverabilityWe walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass -
Made some epic response that surely would have caused massive flame war, but decided to delete it instead.
I will say that some of these quoted attitudes exist even here in these forums. Some posts I've read and responded to in the past only need a single word replaced with something else to reflect exactly what drives people away. But, so many are not easily able to see it nor condone it because the unfortunate reality is, it's become the norm. What can you do to solve this Jason? Need to break out that shell and understand there is a good bulk of what you clearly are not seeing that needs not be the norm anymore.
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I'll leave the discussion with this:
Discussing a pervasive issue, isn't necessarily carving people up. It's noting behavior towards a group of people. That's an observation, and certainly mine may differ from yours. Affording one group special treatment is certainly something to be wary of.
Pointing out a pattern of behavior and asking for a group to receive equal treatment? That doesn't seem to be identity politics, unless you purport to believe that there isn't a pattern.
Our experiences are likely different. Certainly action should be taken at the time and place that there is a transgression. That doesn't always happen, sometimes for good reason. People make mistakes, and our words (written or spoken) can be poorly presented or misinterpreted. However, a pattern of behavior, whether from am individual or a group, ought to be taken for what it is as well: a pattern.
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Sorry Jeff, couldn't help it 😀
😎 - Eirikur Eiriksson - Sunday, April 29, 2018 9:42 AM
Heh.... someone on that end just doesn't understand what the PDF format is. Also, not sure what a "Ptb" is. The only thing I remember is a "Peach Tree Backup" file.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) - Jeff Moden - Sunday, April 29, 2018 9:48 AM
This is a PTB(oat)
😎
😉 - Eirikur Eiriksson - Sunday, April 29, 2018 10:23 AMJeff Moden - Sunday, April 29, 2018 9:48 AM
This is a PTB(oat)
😎
😉BWAAA-HAAAAA-HAAAAA!!!!! You mean the a Porkchop fired from a Tube Boat!!! 😀
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
Man, you've just gotta "love" ORMs...
WHERE (UNICODE([t0].[ActivityStatusCode]) = @p0) AND (UNICODE([t0].[DeficiencyAutomationStatusCode]) = @p1)
I just can't imagine why that might have a Logical Read problem. :D;)
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)
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