April 27, 2018 at 2:53 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.
Now are they going to do something about it, or talk about it and then lament that nothing helped in a few months?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 27, 2018 at 3:20 am
GilaMonster - Friday, April 27, 2018 2:53 AMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.Now are they going to do something about it, or talk about it and then lament that nothing helped in a few months?
I read that link and I don't feel like they are going to do anything. It seems like they've said "We've identified the problem, and it's the users. So we're hoping the users will read this and change." It's going to need a lot more than a blog post to change the toxicity in SO, and the Stack Exchange community as a whole.
Thom~
Excuse my typos and sometimes awful grammar. My fingers work faster than my brain does.
Larnu.uk
April 27, 2018 at 5:14 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.
It's been a concern of mine around here occasionally. I do think we're WAY better than SO, but that doesn't mean we can't improve.
One reason I love the fact that so many of the most active posters are also here in the watercooler is because we can help enforce the standards.
By the way, interestingly enough, this is a biological thing and, we really can change the tone if we try. Read this.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
April 27, 2018 at 7:38 am
Grant Fritchey - Friday, April 27, 2018 5:14 AMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.It's been a concern of mine around here occasionally. I do think we're WAY better than SO, but that doesn't mean we can't improve.
One reason I love the fact that so many of the most active posters are also here in the watercooler is because we can help enforce the standards.
By the way, interestingly enough, this is a biological thing and, we really can change the tone if we try. Read this.
It really is one of the greatest things about this community. We have a much more welcoming and friendly attitude overall. Sure we all have our moments but the regulars around here also tend to police ourselves. When somebody posts something negative I often see people chastise them for being rude or negative and reminding them they were once a newbie too. But we all have to remember that when we are posting. If you would be embarrassed to let your grandmother read your post maybe it needs to be worded differently.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
April 27, 2018 at 7:46 am
Sean Lange - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:38 AMIf you would be embarrassed to let your grandmother read your post maybe it needs to be worded differently.
Great way to put it. I'll probably steal that without attribution.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
April 27, 2018 at 8:02 am
Grant Fritchey - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:46 AMSean Lange - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:38 AMIf you would be embarrassed to let your grandmother read your post maybe it needs to be worded differently.
Great way to put it. I'll probably steal that without attribution.
You clearly haven't met my grandmother. 🙂
Thom~
Excuse my typos and sometimes awful grammar. My fingers work faster than my brain does.
Larnu.uk
April 27, 2018 at 8:10 am
Grant Fritchey - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:46 AMSean Lange - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:38 AMIf you would be embarrassed to let your grandmother read your post maybe it needs to be worded differently.
Great way to put it. I'll probably steal that without attribution.
Heh I probably stole it from somebody else and just conjured it up today. 😉
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
April 27, 2018 at 8:11 am
Thom A - Friday, April 27, 2018 8:02 AMGrant Fritchey - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:46 AMSean Lange - Friday, April 27, 2018 7:38 AMIf you would be embarrassed to let your grandmother read your post maybe it needs to be worded differently.
Great way to put it. I'll probably steal that without attribution.
You clearly haven't met my grandmother. 🙂
So many responses come to mind here....
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
April 27, 2018 at 8:15 am
Sean Lange - Friday, April 27, 2018 8:11 AMSo many responses come to mind here....
To be honest, it's more than she's become quite "polically incorrect" in her age. Provided she's with family, it's quite amusing.
Thom~
Excuse my typos and sometimes awful grammar. My fingers work faster than my brain does.
Larnu.uk
April 27, 2018 at 8:29 am
Thom A - Friday, April 27, 2018 8:15 AMSean Lange - Friday, April 27, 2018 8:11 AMSo many responses come to mind here....
To be honest, it's more than she's become quite "polically incorrect" in her age. Provided she's with family, it's quite amusing.
Seems to happen as we age. I like to say I am PC, politically comfortable, and if that means politically incorrect quite often so be it.
April 27, 2018 at 9:28 am
On an unrelated note, I've started writing fiction again on my personal blog. At the moment it's limited to material related to an ongoing roleplaying campaign, but I hope to add other bits and pieces there from time to time.
http://gilamonster.za.net/blog/
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 27, 2018 at 11:14 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.
The opening lines of the article are,
Let’s start with the painful truth:
Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.
Crap like this makes my skin crawl... The author has taken, what could have been a good opportunity to talk about how newcomers are treated when they join a forum and instead used it as an excuse to delve into identity politics.
The reality is, most technical forums, tend to be fairly egalitarian when it comes to race and/or gender... if, for no other reason, than the fact that there's no requirement for a user to reveal their real name, race or gender.
Until, someone can show me an actual thread where one user is berating or attacking another user based on that users immutable physical characteristics (and that first user wasn't torn to shreds for doing it), I'm going say that the referenced article is the single most racist/sexist thing I've read on SO.
Yes, it's true that some newcomers can get a hostile welcome when they first post on a forum and that's certainly worthy of discussion. Obviously, some are worse than others... but...lets face it, when it happens, it's usually because the newcomer brought it on themselves... The name of this very thread (and the fact that it's over 6,000 pages long) should be evidence of that...
April 27, 2018 at 11:26 am
Jason A. Long - Friday, April 27, 2018 11:14 AMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.The opening lines of the article are,
Let’s start with the painful truth:
Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.Crap like this makes my skin crawl... The author has taken, what could have been a good opportunity to talk about how newcomers are treated when they join a forum and instead used it as an excuse to delve into identity politics.
The reality is, most technical forums, tend to be fairly egalitarian when it comes to race and/or gender... if, for no other reason, than the fact that there's no requirement for a user to reveal their real name, race or gender.
Until, someone can show me an actual thread where one user is berating or attacking another user based on that users immutable physical characteristics (and that first user wasn't torn to shreds for doing it), I'm going say that the referenced article is the single most racist/sexist thing I've read on SO.Yes, it's true that some newcomers can get a hostile welcome when they first post on a forum and that's certainly worthy of discussion. Obviously, some are worse than others... but...lets face it, when it happens, it's usually because the newcomer brought it on themselves... The name of this very thread (and the fact that it's over 6,000 pages long) should be evidence of that...
It's not just newcomers nor any other reason. Many of the monitors are just jerks to the max and doing the Celko thing and collecting points. Even Aaron Bertrand turned out to be a total jerk. He deleted some fellow's post because he recommend the use of "Jeff Moden's DelimitedSplit8K function". Aaron doesn't care too much for me an exercised a privilege of membership the wrong way. Paul White resurrected the post. All of this happened without me knowing a thing about it until I ran into the resurrected post looking for something else.
And, yeah.... totally agree about the article that Jason is talking about... makes my skin crawl.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
April 27, 2018 at 11:40 am
Jeff Moden - Friday, April 27, 2018 11:26 AMJason A. Long - Friday, April 27, 2018 11:14 AMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:57 PMFWIW, SO recognizes some problems: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/#.WuIwkcIW6k0.twitter
I'd like to think that we don't do too much of this. I know a few people push the envelope, and some of us do at times (even me), but overall we do help and welcome newbies.The opening lines of the article are,
Let’s start with the painful truth:
Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.Crap like this makes my skin crawl... The author has taken, what could have been a good opportunity to talk about how newcomers are treated when they join a forum and instead used it as an excuse to delve into identity politics.
The reality is, most technical forums, tend to be fairly egalitarian when it comes to race and/or gender... if, for no other reason, than the fact that there's no requirement for a user to reveal their real name, race or gender.
Until, someone can show me an actual thread where one user is berating or attacking another user based on that users immutable physical characteristics (and that first user wasn't torn to shreds for doing it), I'm going say that the referenced article is the single most racist/sexist thing I've read on SO.Yes, it's true that some newcomers can get a hostile welcome when they first post on a forum and that's certainly worthy of discussion. Obviously, some are worse than others... but...lets face it, when it happens, it's usually because the newcomer brought it on themselves... The name of this very thread (and the fact that it's over 6,000 pages long) should be evidence of that...
It's not just newcomers nor any other reason. Many of the monitors are just jerks to the max and doing the Celko thing and collecting points. Even Aaron Bertrand turned out to be a total jerk. He deleted some fellow's post because he recommend the use of "Jeff Moden's DelimitedSplit8K function". Aaron doesn't care too much for me an exercised a privilege of membership the wrong way. Paul White resurrected the post. All of this happened without me knowing a thing about it until I ran into the resurrected post looking for something else.
And, yeah.... totally agree about the article that Jason is talking about... makes my skin crawl.
Well, Jeff, considering Aaron butchered your DelimitedSplit8K function for the purposes of comparing it with other splitter routines, I get that. As soon as he changed it to take a varchar(max) as input the routine was not going to perform as well. Plus, it wasn't designed to work on varchar(max) strings. Sort of makes his comparison null and void. All one has to do is read your comments in the code to understand that part.
April 27, 2018 at 11:44 am
I don't normally bite. It's not my job to do your research. (and besides, my doing so is unlikely to change your mind)
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/309908/diminishing-numbers-of-women-in-programming-and-the-so-experience
https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/30411/what-can-stack-overflow-do-to-persuade-female-programmers-to-participate-more
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/281295/does-the-so-community-view-itself-as-gender-neutral/281304#281304
But if you want a single opinion. There's a reason I don't use a photo as an avatar any longerand don't use my real name as a handle, and that's not just here, and I've been online since almost before there was a web.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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