January 30, 2016 at 2:10 am
Is it me, or are there weird threads again today. "I want the challenge of trying to fix it without using the easy way" says one, and a second berated me for not summarising an article I wrote, then, apparently, complaining that someone summarised it too much (down to the solution)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 30, 2016 at 4:15 am
GilaMonster (1/30/2016)
Is it me, or are there weird threads again today. "I want the challenge of trying to fix it without using the easy way" says one, and a second berated me for not summarising an article I wrote, then, apparently, complaining that someone summarised it too much (down to the solution)
Yeah, I noticed it too. I stopped visiting the MSDN forums, many years ago, because of the huge amount of people with a "here's my problem fix it for me now" attitude. No clear description, no schema or sample data, and a terrible attitude towards people who ask questions in order to define the actual problem and fix that, instead of just throwing out some random code fragment that (appears to) do what they (appear to) ask.
The lack of repro scripts is getting to me here as well, but it's not as bad as it was over there. But this particular thread you refered to really ticked me off. Based on my response, I expect Grant to offer me to take over his nickname.:-D
January 30, 2016 at 6:26 am
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
GilaMonster (1/30/2016)
Is it me, or are there weird threads again today. "I want the challenge of trying to fix it without using the easy way" says one, and a second berated me for not summarising an article I wrote, then, apparently, complaining that someone summarised it too much (down to the solution)Yeah, I noticed it too. I stopped visiting the MSDN forums, many years ago, because of the huge amount of people with a "here's my problem fix it for me now" attitude. No clear description, no schema or sample data, and a terrible attitude towards people who ask questions in order to define the actual problem and fix that, instead of just throwing out some random code fragment that (appears to) do what they (appear to) ask.
The lack of repro scripts is getting to me here as well, but it's not as bad as it was over there. But this particular thread you refered to really ticked me off. Based on my response, I expect Grant to offer me to take over his nickname.:-D
I've also noticed the, as you put it, "here's my problem fix it for me now" attitude here lately. Last night I saw the one that said I did it this way...."Please verify the script". You know the one.
The unwillingness to post DDL and data, or sometimes even real code, is also increasing lately. If someone asks a vague question, how can they expect a solid answer? They flat-out refuse to provide DDL and data and get ornery when you ask for it. Then they complain when a single character is out of place (after all, it's untested) and post back "this don't work. throws error." but don't give the error or anything.
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?
January 30, 2016 at 7:04 am
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?
The problem is, as long as there is as much as a single person on the forum who just posts some random code that appears to fix the issue, the OP thinks they have been helped and walk away. That was the actual core of the problem at the MSDN forums. They had a point system that was even more visible than it is here, and you'd get extra points if your reply was marked as the helpful answer. There were a lot of people there who seemed to be mostly interested in upping their score - perhaps they expected that they could use a high score to find a better job more easily?
I've lost ttrack of how often I would see a request for e.g. a dynamic search. I would type a message explaining that they might have a bad database design and why they should post their CREATE TABLE, INSERT, and business problem - and by the time I was done, one of the point-hunters whould have posted a copy/paste of their standard dynamic SQL, of course without any warning about the injection risk and using EXEC (@sql) instead of sp_executesql because that's faster to type. And the OP would have tested it on his own small table (if at all!), not noticed any risk, and moved on.
In the start I tried posting back to such a topic with warnings about SQL injection, links to Erland Sommarskog's great explanations on dynamic SQL and dynamic search conditions, but either the OP never returned or they didn't want to hear that the easy solution they had been given was dangerous.
I think that this, even more than the consumerist attitude of the people asking the question, is what caused me to stop visiting those forums.
January 30, 2016 at 7:44 am
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?I think that this, even more than the consumerist attitude of the people asking the question, is what caused me to stop visiting those forums.
That statement is really good. I never thought of it that way, but I think you nailed it. Some people have a consumerist attitude, like stack overflow, where people just put a "coin in the slot" and an answer comes out. It doesn't matter if it's a good answer, just that it works. It doesn't have to be fast, efficient or scale well. It just has to work. I can't imagine not wanting to continually learn and get better at what I do, but not everyone shares the same passion.
January 30, 2016 at 9:06 am
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?I think that this, even more than the consumerist attitude of the people asking the question, is what caused me to stop visiting those forums.
That statement is really good. I never thought of it that way, but I think you nailed it. Some people have a consumerist attitude, like stack overflow, where people just put a "coin in the slot" and an answer comes out. It doesn't matter if it's a good answer, just that it works. It doesn't have to be fast, efficient or scale well. It just has to work. I can't imagine not wanting to continually learn and get better at what I do, but not everyone shares the same passion.
I actually think that StackOverflow (at least the questions and answers I have seen there) is generally a lot better then the MSDN forums. And even (sorry Steve!) a bit better than this forum.
The reason is that on SO, regulars can verify previously posted solutions - and downvote if there's something wrong! So the "bad" solution that someone posted ("the best way to shoot yourself in the foot? simply poit down the gun and pull the trigger") may get upvoted by the OP, but will get commented on and downvoted later. It will move down the list of suggestions so that future visitors will not see it at the top, and the person who posted the question actually loses points - so here the point system actually provides an incentive to post GOOD solutions, or to simply move on if you only have a bad solution to offer.
I must admit that I never spent much time on SO, so my view may be based on a non-representative sample.
January 30, 2016 at 9:48 am
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?I think that this, even more than the consumerist attitude of the people asking the question, is what caused me to stop visiting those forums.
That statement is really good. I never thought of it that way, but I think you nailed it. Some people have a consumerist attitude, like stack overflow, where people just put a "coin in the slot" and an answer comes out. It doesn't matter if it's a good answer, just that it works. It doesn't have to be fast, efficient or scale well. It just has to work. I can't imagine not wanting to continually learn and get better at what I do, but not everyone shares the same passion.
I actually think that StackOverflow (at least the questions and answers I have seen there) is generally a lot better then the MSDN forums. And even (sorry Steve!) a bit better than this forum.
The reason is that on SO, regulars can verify previously posted solutions - and downvote if there's something wrong! So the "bad" solution that someone posted ("the best way to shoot yourself in the foot? simply poit down the gun and pull the trigger") may get upvoted by the OP, but will get commented on and downvoted later. It will move down the list of suggestions so that future visitors will not see it at the top, and the person who posted the question actually loses points - so here the point system actually provides an incentive to post GOOD solutions, or to simply move on if you only have a bad solution to offer.
I must admit that I never spent much time on SO, so my view may be based on a non-representative sample.
I haven't spent much time on it either, so my sample is very limited. I've seen enough to know that discussion is discouraged and some posts just disappear, apparently for being too long.
The thing I love about this site is that discussion is encouraged. It's through the discussion that new and better solutions are found, myths are dispelled, perspectives change, real learning happens and growth occurs. I may not be familiar with all the different forums and sites that exist, but I don't need to be. I think this is the best one in the world.
January 30, 2016 at 4:12 pm
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
The problem is, as long as there is as much as a single person on the forum who just posts some random code that appears to fix the issue, the OP thinks they have been helped and walk away.
Hmmmm... I've noticed that same problem on many posts. Wouldn't you say that a little bashing is deserved when someone does such a thing?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 30, 2016 at 4:27 pm
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?I think that this, even more than the consumerist attitude of the people asking the question, is what caused me to stop visiting those forums.
That statement is really good. I never thought of it that way, but I think you nailed it. Some people have a consumerist attitude, like stack overflow, where people just put a "coin in the slot" and an answer comes out. It doesn't matter if it's a good answer, just that it works. It doesn't have to be fast, efficient or scale well. It just has to work. I can't imagine not wanting to continually learn and get better at what I do, but not everyone shares the same passion.
I actually think that StackOverflow (at least the questions and answers I have seen there) is generally a lot better then the MSDN forums. And even (sorry Steve!) a bit better than this forum.
The reason is that on SO, regulars can verify previously posted solutions - and downvote if there's something wrong! So the "bad" solution that someone posted ("the best way to shoot yourself in the foot? simply poit down the gun and pull the trigger") may get upvoted by the OP, but will get commented on and downvoted later. It will move down the list of suggestions so that future visitors will not see it at the top, and the person who posted the question actually loses points - so here the point system actually provides an incentive to post GOOD solutions, or to simply move on if you only have a bad solution to offer.
I must admit that I never spent much time on SO, so my view may be based on a non-representative sample.
Personally, I think SO sucks. There's no chance of helping someone understand a deeper or different but associated problem without some over zealous "monitor" closing threads or what have you. The whole format seems to be closer to the "I have a problem, fix it for me" syndrome that we're talking about on this very thread. You can't even post a link to a very detailed article without someone getting bent out of shape. Not very "community" oriented... most just SO oriented.
I can't directly attribute the crud the occurs on SO, MSDN, and many other forums to the propensity to ask crap questions or the recent trend of people posting quick answers that either don't work or have a major flaw (natural ordering anyone?) but it seems like more and more people are adding to the problem.
On the bright side, it means that the economy is good for IT people because it appears that companies are hiring anyone they can get their hands on. Heh... it's apparently a rule of thumb... the more often you see stupid questions and wrong answers, the better the economy is/going to be. 😛
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 30, 2016 at 8:30 pm
Jeff Moden (1/30/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
I enjoy helping people, but honestly, what do they they expect from a free help forum?I think that this, even more than the consumerist attitude of the people asking the question, is what caused me to stop visiting those forums.
That statement is really good. I never thought of it that way, but I think you nailed it. Some people have a consumerist attitude, like stack overflow, where people just put a "coin in the slot" and an answer comes out. It doesn't matter if it's a good answer, just that it works. It doesn't have to be fast, efficient or scale well. It just has to work. I can't imagine not wanting to continually learn and get better at what I do, but not everyone shares the same passion.
I actually think that StackOverflow (at least the questions and answers I have seen there) is generally a lot better then the MSDN forums. And even (sorry Steve!) a bit better than this forum.
The reason is that on SO, regulars can verify previously posted solutions - and downvote if there's something wrong! So the "bad" solution that someone posted ("the best way to shoot yourself in the foot? simply poit down the gun and pull the trigger") may get upvoted by the OP, but will get commented on and downvoted later. It will move down the list of suggestions so that future visitors will not see it at the top, and the person who posted the question actually loses points - so here the point system actually provides an incentive to post GOOD solutions, or to simply move on if you only have a bad solution to offer.
I must admit that I never spent much time on SO, so my view may be based on a non-representative sample.
Personally, I think SO sucks. There's no chance of helping someone understand a deeper or different but associated problem without some over zealous "monitor" closing threads or what have you. The whole format seems to be closer to the "I have a problem, fix it for me" syndrome that we're talking about on this very thread. You can't even post a link to a very detailed article without someone getting bent out of shape. Not very "community" oriented... most just SO oriented.
I can't directly attribute the crud the occurs on SO, MSDN, and many other forums to the propensity to ask crap questions or the recent trend of people posting quick answers that either don't work or have a major flaw (natural ordering anyone?) but it seems like more and more people are adding to the problem.
On the bright side, it means that the economy is good for IT people because it appears that companies are hiring anyone they can get their hands on. Heh... it's apparently a rule of thumb... the more often you see stupid questions and wrong answers, the better the economy is/going to be. 😛
I have very little experience with the MSDN forums several years ago. It seemed like so many of the answers dodged the real question and were something that was kind-of related, but didn't work. Again, with limited exposure to it, it might not be representative of the whole and it might be different now, but without real discussion, real learning doesn't happen. The articles and discussion on this site are top-notch.
January 31, 2016 at 3:43 am
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
The articles and discussion on this site are top-notch.
I am once more going to be contrary. But let me start with the positive: a lot of the articles over here, and all the ensuing discussions on the forums, are fantastic. But Steve has made the decision to present new content (almost) every day. And unless you have unlimited budget, that choice will always reflect on quality. On a site such as Simple Talk[/url], the overall quality of the articles is much higher than it is here. But that's easy to achieve for Tony (the editor of that site), because on that site the quality is prioritized over the quantity of new content. At this time, there are just 6 articles in all of January.
I personally prefer the type of choice made at Simple Talk over the choice made here. The requirement to have new content every day means that it's impossible to go through a full quality control process before publishing for all articles. And that sometimes does show in the content. Now the good news is that this will always be pointed out in the forums, including possible solutions, workarounds, and/or discussion on whether a perceived mistake is really a mistake. Always good to read. But unfortunately, I am 100% sure that most of the people who read an article on this site never click the link to the forums - so all those good additions and rectifications are never seen by the majority of the site visitors.
January 31, 2016 at 8:36 am
Hugo Kornelis (1/31/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
The articles and discussion on this site are top-notch.I am once more going to be contrary. But let me start with the positive: a lot of the articles over here, and all the ensuing discussions on the forums, are fantastic. But Steve has made the decision to present new content (almost) every day. And unless you have unlimited budget, that choice will always reflect on quality. On a site such as Simple Talk[/url], the overall quality of the articles is much higher than it is here. But that's easy to achieve for Tony (the editor of that site), because on that site the quality is prioritized over the quantity of new content. At this time, there are just 6 articles in all of January.
I personally prefer the type of choice made at Simple Talk over the choice made here. The requirement to have new content every day means that it's impossible to go through a full quality control process before publishing for all articles. And that sometimes does show in the content. Now the good news is that this will always be pointed out in the forums, including possible solutions, workarounds, and/or discussion on whether a perceived mistake is really a mistake. Always good to read. But unfortunately, I am 100% sure that most of the people who read an article on this site never click the link to the forums - so all those good additions and rectifications are never seen by the majority of the site visitors.
Gosh, with so many negative things to say about SSC, why do you post here?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 31, 2016 at 9:18 am
Jeff Moden (1/31/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/31/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
The articles and discussion on this site are top-notch.I am once more going to be contrary. But let me start with the positive: a lot of the articles over here, and all the ensuing discussions on the forums, are fantastic. But Steve has made the decision to present new content (almost) every day. And unless you have unlimited budget, that choice will always reflect on quality. On a site such as Simple Talk[/url], the overall quality of the articles is much higher than it is here. But that's easy to achieve for Tony (the editor of that site), because on that site the quality is prioritized over the quantity of new content. At this time, there are just 6 articles in all of January.
I personally prefer the type of choice made at Simple Talk over the choice made here. The requirement to have new content every day means that it's impossible to go through a full quality control process before publishing for all articles. And that sometimes does show in the content. Now the good news is that this will always be pointed out in the forums, including possible solutions, workarounds, and/or discussion on whether a perceived mistake is really a mistake. Always good to read. But unfortunately, I am 100% sure that most of the people who read an article on this site never click the link to the forums - so all those good additions and rectifications are never seen by the majority of the site visitors.
Gosh, with so many negative things to say about SSC, why do you post here?
Do not confuse criticism for negativity.
January 31, 2016 at 9:48 am
Hugo Kornelis (1/31/2016)
Jeff Moden (1/31/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/31/2016)
Ed Wagner (1/30/2016)
The articles and discussion on this site are top-notch.I am once more going to be contrary. But let me start with the positive: a lot of the articles over here, and all the ensuing discussions on the forums, are fantastic. But Steve has made the decision to present new content (almost) every day. And unless you have unlimited budget, that choice will always reflect on quality. On a site such as Simple Talk[/url], the overall quality of the articles is much higher than it is here. But that's easy to achieve for Tony (the editor of that site), because on that site the quality is prioritized over the quantity of new content. At this time, there are just 6 articles in all of January.
I personally prefer the type of choice made at Simple Talk over the choice made here. The requirement to have new content every day means that it's impossible to go through a full quality control process before publishing for all articles. And that sometimes does show in the content. Now the good news is that this will always be pointed out in the forums, including possible solutions, workarounds, and/or discussion on whether a perceived mistake is really a mistake. Always good to read. But unfortunately, I am 100% sure that most of the people who read an article on this site never click the link to the forums - so all those good additions and rectifications are never seen by the majority of the site visitors.
Gosh, with so many negative things to say about SSC, why do you post here?
Do not confuse criticism for negativity.
Not sure that I am. Is there anything that you like about SSC other than the "lot" of articles?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 31, 2016 at 10:03 am
Jeff Moden (1/30/2016)
Hugo Kornelis (1/30/2016)
The problem is, as long as there is as much as a single person on the forum who just posts some random code that appears to fix the issue, the OP thinks they have been helped and walk away.Hmmmm... I've noticed that same problem on many posts. Wouldn't you say that a little bashing is deserved when someone does such a thing?
so who is "allowed" to do the "bashing" .......what criteria / qualifications are required to be a "basher"?
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