June 2, 2009 at 9:40 am
Florian Reischl (6/2/2009)
Hi LynnLynn Pettis (6/1/2009)
You may have read my post late last week looking for help, not with SQL Server, but trying to help my daughter who is currently in Germany find things to do. Her trip wasn't turning out the way she had hoped. Well, one of our own here on SSC stepped up and we had several email exchanges and it made me think.I saw your post and I really thought if I know anybody in Frankfurt but I don’t. I’m in Munich and not in the age of your sister (31). I’m really glad that Lutz could help you!!
Hmm my parents live in Düsseldorf but even that is too far from Frankfurt 🙁
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June 2, 2009 at 9:43 am
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/FindPost727250.aspx
Why do people keep defending that query form even in the face of evidence that it performs terribly?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
June 2, 2009 at 9:53 am
Gail, I've heard slow code defended because:
1. "It's more intuitive."
2. "It reads better."
3. "SQL figures all that stuff out."
4. "That's how I was taught to do it."
etc, etc, ad nauseam
First you have to get them to understand/concede that performance is important. Then you have to show them that one technique is MUCH faster... and then you have to hope that they will have a moment of enlightenment.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
June 2, 2009 at 9:54 am
Why do people keep defending that query form even in the face of evidence that it performs terribly?
Because so many people are unwilling to admit that someone else my know more than them. Also most people, myself included, work with such small sets of data (<100K rows), that the performance hit is not obvious unless you take the time to read the Execution plans.
I actually started using the IsNull(@param, 0) for awhile, especially for integer ranges that TheSQLGuru mentions in one of his more recent posts.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
June 2, 2009 at 10:20 am
Grant, Bill says Hi back to you.. 🙂
He wants to know if you still got your Fedora?? 😉
-Roy
June 2, 2009 at 11:06 am
Roy Ernest (6/2/2009)
Grant, Bill says Hi back to you.. 🙂He wants to know if you still got your Fedora?? 😉
That thing made my head itch something fierce. It's gone.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
June 2, 2009 at 11:17 am
Apparently the debate of the article has spilled onto Twitter where I am now receiving complaints.
Fun.
June 2, 2009 at 11:36 am
Steve Jones - Editor (6/2/2009)
Apparently the debate of the article has spilled onto Twitter where I am now receiving complaints.Fun.
Would it be possible for you to provide more info? I don't twitter, so I have no idea what is going on. Sorry if i started something.
June 2, 2009 at 11:48 am
Lynn Pettis (6/2/2009)
Steve Jones - Editor (6/2/2009)
Apparently the debate of the article has spilled onto Twitter where I am now receiving complaints.Fun.
Would it be possible for you to provide more info? I don't twitter, so I have no idea what is going on. Sorry if i started something.
Lynn,
I believe that Steve is referencing the article discussion that Gail linked to earlier today. Here's the discussion link, http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic726230-1303-1.aspx and here's the article link, Writing Dynamic Stored Procedure[/url].
Steve is getting roasted by Adam Machanic for publishing the article because Adam thinks the concept is crap (My interpretation and summary of what has been said).
Edit: added explanation that I am providing my interpretation of the discussion on Twitter
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
June 2, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Jack is correct. My Machanic asked why that was ever published, it's horrible, and said the most basic review wasn't done.
Going through the debate, it seems that there was some confusion, and even TheSQLGuru learned something, as did others.
As long as we want to complain about users, I think it's fair to remember that we do make mistakes ourselves, especially on this ever shifting sands of a technology platform where sometimes advice that worked in the last version or even patch, might not apply moving forward. And there are various tools in the toolbox that make sense to understand and use.
Do I review the articles? Lightly, not trying to test every piece of code or execution plan. I don't judge whether it's good advice, though I might point out to authors where I disagree and give them the chance to alter/edit.
June 2, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Jack Corbett (6/2/2009)
Steve is getting roasted by Adam Machanic for publishing the article because Adam thinks the concept is crap (My interpretation and summary of what has been said).
No reason not to publish. I'm sure others, like me, have learned something from the 'robust' discussion that resulted.
June 2, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Tom Brown (6/2/2009)
Jack Corbett (6/2/2009)
Steve is getting roasted by Adam Machanic for publishing the article because Adam thinks the concept is crap (My interpretation and summary of what has been said).
No reason not to publish. I'm sure others, like me, have learned something from the 'robust' discussion that resulted.
That is one of the reasons why Steve is more liberal in what he allows to be published. It may not be the best way, but it will generate discussion. The second article of mine that Steve published wasn't real good, in my opinion, but it was a great experience for me as a writer. So I appreciate the way that SSC does things.
If I want any articles tech edited before I submit I'd ask someone here to do that and try to save Steve the trouble.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
June 2, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Whether it's right or wrong, I come down on the side of allowing authors to have a voice and make their position known. I like the debate, and I like the discussions that follow. I think it's better than judging someone's work and not publishing it because I personally disagree, or censoring it because I think it's "bad".
I don't think "bad" and "good" describe things well for technical debates. There's "better" and "worse" in situations, but no absolutes. I'm not sure there are than many absolutes outside of technology in life either. Most things are gray with situational dependencies.
We grow and learn from our mistakes. If you want to write, you need to live with that.
Too many "experts" think that only their advice, only their experienced thoughts should be published. I heavily disagree with that.
June 2, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I agree with you, Steve. Wish I had a topic to write on (or time) because I'd want to publish on SSC more than anywhere else for that very reason. The value here isn't the articles (although some are great), it's the community and the discussion. Especially when people think an article is wrong, that's when you really learn something because they explain why they think it's wrong.
If people haven't figured that out and take articles at face value, then I have a bridge to sell them . . . 😉
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
June 2, 2009 at 12:54 pm
If people haven't figured that out and take articles at face value, then I have a bridge to sell them . . .
Let me guess, well used, located in the Northeastern US, well trafficked, recognizable, a steal of a deal at any price?
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