July 3, 2015 at 5:03 am
GilaMonster (7/2/2015)
Informal survey before I make a fool of myself in an article (again)Do you get the feeling that IT people, especially ones at the top-end of the field, are too reluctant to ask for help?
I don't mean technical help, I mean with stuff like burnout, depression, etc.
I keep seeing it locally, the belief that we have to be superheroes to work in the field, must be able to work all-nighters, heroic long hours, don't take time off sick, never admit weakness.
Local thing, or more widespread?
Widespread. Not everyone, of course, but enough people.
July 3, 2015 at 5:27 am
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).
No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 3, 2015 at 5:38 am
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
For all of the reasons you mention, I really don't like it when sick people struggle to be seen as heroes by dragging themselves into the office. As soon as they start coughing and sneezing, I tell them to go home. If they want to log in and work from home, I can't stop them. But at least they're not contaminating their co-workers.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
- Martin Rees
The absence of consumable DDL, sample data and desired results is, however, evidence of the absence of my response
- Phil Parkin
July 3, 2015 at 5:45 am
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
Ugh. I hate the mindset of "you have to do a lot of hours if you want to be succesful".
It only shows you do not know how to be productive in 40 hours.
I had an interview at KPMG once: "We know we have standard contracts of 40 hours per week, but we expect you to do more." Never went back there.
At my very first project, I sometimes came in really early, just to beat traffic jams. This also meant I left early. My manager told me some people were upset because I left early. I told him that I arrive early as well and that I do my required 8 hours a day. He replied with: "I know, but they don't see that, because they arrive later". My reply: "Not my problem...". That manager told me that I was still very young and that I had a lot to learn, and that I would change my mindset later on. After a few years, I can safely say I have become only more confidant of my mindset 😀
I have even refused to go on projects because the commute was too long. It would have made a too big of an impact on my personal life. Managers don't get really happy when you tell them that.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
July 3, 2015 at 5:52 am
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
Ugh. I hate the mindset of "you have to do a lot of hours if you want to be succesful".
It only shows you do not know how to be productive in 40 hours.
I had an interview at KPMG once: "We know we have standard contracts of 40 hours per week, but we expect you to do more." Never went back there.
At my very first project, I sometimes came in really early, just to beat traffic jams. This also meant I left early. My manager told me some people were upset because I left early. I told him that I arrive early as well and that I do my required 8 hours a day. He replied with: "I know, but they don't see that, because they arrive later". My reply: "Not my problem...". That manager told me that I was still very young and that I had a lot to learn, and that I would change my mindset later on. After a few years, I can safely say I have become only more confidant of my mindset 😀
I have even refused to go on projects because the commute was too long. It would have made a too big of an impact on my personal life. Managers don't get really happy when you tell them that.
Thumbs up, great approach.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
- Martin Rees
The absence of consumable DDL, sample data and desired results is, however, evidence of the absence of my response
- Phil Parkin
July 3, 2015 at 5:59 am
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
There's been studies. You begin to make more and more mistakes the longer you work. The mistakes cause rework, making you less and less efficient. The heroic 16 hour days for 3-4 days doesn't deliver more and better code. It delivers buggy and problematic crap. Add on to that burnout. Add on to that communication problems as you get cranky and less able to cope with the quirks and foibles of your co-workers.
It's a foolish approach.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
July 3, 2015 at 6:01 am
Phil Parkin (7/3/2015)
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
Ugh. I hate the mindset of "you have to do a lot of hours if you want to be succesful".
It only shows you do not know how to be productive in 40 hours.
I had an interview at KPMG once: "We know we have standard contracts of 40 hours per week, but we expect you to do more." Never went back there.
At my very first project, I sometimes came in really early, just to beat traffic jams. This also meant I left early. My manager told me some people were upset because I left early. I told him that I arrive early as well and that I do my required 8 hours a day. He replied with: "I know, but they don't see that, because they arrive later". My reply: "Not my problem...". That manager told me that I was still very young and that I had a lot to learn, and that I would change my mindset later on. After a few years, I can safely say I have become only more confidant of my mindset 😀
I have even refused to go on projects because the commute was too long. It would have made a too big of an impact on my personal life. Managers don't get really happy when you tell them that.
Thumbs up, great approach.
That being said, it doesn't mean I'm not flexible. I do a lot of self-study and article writing after the hours - mainly because it interests me, sort of like a hobby - and when deadlines approach, I have no trouble stepping it up a few notches to make the deadline happen. But after the deadline, I go home earlier for a few days to "recuperate".
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
July 3, 2015 at 6:04 am
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
+1000
I had my first kid since I was 24.
Actual conversation:
"You're going home early? I'm not leaving till 7pm."
"Do you have kids?"
"Euhm. No."
"Then don't try to understand my situation."
😀
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
July 3, 2015 at 6:20 am
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
+1000
I had my first kid since I was 24.
Actual conversation:
"You're going home early? I'm not leaving till 7pm."
"Do you have kids?"
"Euhm. No."
"Then don't try to understand my situation."
😀
I am perceived as lazy because I leave early to pick my child up from school (4pm). They forget that I have been in since 715am.
July 3, 2015 at 6:22 am
BL0B_EATER (7/3/2015)
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
+1000
I had my first kid since I was 24.
Actual conversation:
"You're going home early? I'm not leaving till 7pm."
"Do you have kids?"
"Euhm. No."
"Then don't try to understand my situation."
😀
I am perceived as lazy because I leave early to pick my child up from school (4pm). They forget that I have been in since 715am.
+1
I have had the same issue before.
Once I had to leave a meeting that was running late (what a surprise) because I had to pick up my kids.
They all looked at me like "Can't your wife do that?"
Not their business if my wife can or cannot pick up my kids.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
July 3, 2015 at 6:28 am
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
TomThomson (7/3/2015)
But don't make the mistake of thinking that all-nighters are always a sign of problems, or long hours (how can long hours be "heroic"?).No, I'm not talking about the occasional late night, or the shifting of hours within a week (I do that all the time) to go home early on Fridays (or not work them at all)
I'm talking about things like working 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end and assuming that doing so is expected and required to get ahead in our industry. Worse, teaching new graduates, by example, that it's the norm.
Hell, my company has a reward given to people who work more than 180 hours in a month. I got it back in February and when my boss commented on it I told him that I'd clearly messed up somewhere if 180 hours in a month was required.
Part of this comes from a discussion I had with 2 of my company's latest graduate group. They were lamenting in the kitchen yesterday that they were one man short because one of the team had stayed home sick (flu's going around)
My reply was "Good for him", and I pointed out to them that coming in to work while sick is stupid and counter-productive (you can't work well when really sick, and are just going to make the rest of the people sick)
They agreed with me, probably because they're still in the university mindset of 'agree with your teachers', but I could see that they were surprised by my opinion.
Ugh. I hate the mindset of "you have to do a lot of hours if you want to be succesful".
It only shows you do not know how to be productive in 40 hours.
I had an interview at KPMG once: "We know we have standard contracts of 40 hours per week, but we expect you to do more." Never went back there.
At my very first project, I sometimes came in really early, just to beat traffic jams. This also meant I left early. My manager told me some people were upset because I left early. I told him that I arrive early as well and that I do my required 8 hours a day. He replied with: "I know, but they don't see that, because they arrive later". My reply: "Not my problem...". That manager told me that I was still very young and that I had a lot to learn, and that I would change my mindset later on. After a few years, I can safely say I have become only more confidant of my mindset 😀
I have even refused to go on projects because the commute was too long. It would have made a too big of an impact on my personal life. Managers don't get really happy when you tell them that.
Thumbs up from me too. Work smarter and harder and you don't need to stay until late. It smacks of "presenteeism".
The next gig is substantially less of a commute than here. Since I want to keep to the current morning regime, that would mean arriving around 8am and scoring big time on the journey home.
For fast, accurate and documented assistance in answering your questions, please read this article.
Understanding and using APPLY, (I) and (II) Paul White
Hidden RBAR: Triangular Joins / The "Numbers" or "Tally" Table: What it is and how it replaces a loop Jeff Moden
July 3, 2015 at 6:31 am
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
BL0B_EATER (7/3/2015)
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
+1000
I had my first kid since I was 24.
Actual conversation:
"You're going home early? I'm not leaving till 7pm."
"Do you have kids?"
"Euhm. No."
"Then don't try to understand my situation."
😀
I am perceived as lazy because I leave early to pick my child up from school (4pm). They forget that I have been in since 715am.
+1
I have had the same issue before.
Once I had to leave a meeting that was running late (what a surprise) because I had to pick up my kids.
They all looked at me like "Can't your wife do that?"
Not their business if my wife can or cannot pick up my kids.
This is one area my company's good with. I usually walk into the office around 10AM and leave either around 4pm or 6pm (or later) depending on the day. The late arrival is because I work about an hour and a half from home in the morning, then drive in. Rush hour commute: 45-60 minutes. Out of rush hour commute: 15 minutes. Not a hard choice.
They were considering sending me to Cape Town yesterday, potential new client with a crisis. I told them I needed to be back in Joburg by 4pm today. There was no debating, no trying to persuade me otherwise. Just an acceptance that I have a life outside work, so I'm going down Monday instead
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 3, 2015 at 6:37 am
GilaMonster (7/3/2015)
They were considering sending me to Cape Town yesterday, potential new client with a crisis. I told them I needed to be back in Joburg by 4pm today. There was no debating, no trying to persuade me otherwise. Just an acceptance that I have a life outside work, so I'm going down Monday instead
That's awesome.
I've had managers that respect this. Others that didn't. Guess where I stayed the longest 😀
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
July 3, 2015 at 7:04 am
BL0B_EATER (7/3/2015)
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
+1000
I had my first kid since I was 24.
Actual conversation:
"You're going home early? I'm not leaving till 7pm."
"Do you have kids?"
"Euhm. No."
"Then don't try to understand my situation."
😀
I am perceived as lazy because I leave early to pick my child up from school (4pm). They forget that I have been in since 715am.
That used to an issue for me as well. "We have flexible hours." Cool, I'm working from 6AM to 3PM. "We meant you don't have to come in til 10AM, but you're staying til 10PM"
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
July 3, 2015 at 7:13 am
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
BL0B_EATER (7/3/2015)
Koen Verbeeck (7/3/2015)
Grant Fritchey (7/3/2015)
That reminds me of the old dot com days. It was expected that everyone was going to work like pigs, nights & weekends. Most of them were kids in their 20s with no families. I, on the other hand, was in my 30s and had kids. I went home, regularly. It freaked people out.
+1000
I had my first kid since I was 24.
Actual conversation:
"You're going home early? I'm not leaving till 7pm."
"Do you have kids?"
"Euhm. No."
"Then don't try to understand my situation."
😀
I am perceived as lazy because I leave early to pick my child up from school (4pm). They forget that I have been in since 715am.
That used to an issue for me as well. "We have flexible hours." Cool, I'm working from 6AM to 3PM. "We meant you don't have to come in til 10AM, but you're staying til 10PM"
+1
Companies have odd definitions of flexible hours 😀
Flexible most of the time also means "you need to be flexible for us, but the company doesn't need to be flexible for you".
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
Viewing 15 posts - 49,291 through 49,305 (of 66,712 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply