March 23, 2015 at 9:30 am
I don't normally weigh in on the gender imbalance conversations. However, I think that there is more to it than any of us has, or can, present. I heard the riddle many years ago (probably was 10 or 12 at the time), but the person asking the riddle didn't give me time to come up with an answer. Since then, it has had an effect on my interactions with both genders. I like to say that I don't care if you are blue, black, green, orange, or Pink & purple polkadots (though you will need to excuse me if I ask if you need medical attention). I was raised as a 2nd or 3rd generation that did not regard skin color at all, neither do I regard gender in reference to skills and talents. I was 18 years old and in College before I realized that people in this world today do things to each other based only on skin color, I had never seen or heard of that before.
The above is to bring me to the point that if you don't have skills, don't claim gender bias... sometimes people just stink. Obviously Gail and Brandy (among others that I can't remember the names of) are highly skilled and I would be honored to ask them questions. Though, I get accused of being argumentative because I ask questions until I understand something (which comes off sometimes as highly criticizing someone else's abilities). I have found that I might ask 2 or 3 sources before making a conclusion. So if I happen to ask a woman first, but then come to the same conclusion after talking to 2 men... it doesn't mean I didn't value her input. I could just as easily have asked her last and come to the same conclusion... it's simply a matter of who I ran into first in a situation where I could ask questions and that might know about the problem I was solving.
I do, however, dislike being put into a category of "men" that do these dumb and wrong things. I also dislike not being told that something I've done has been a problem, I can't fix what I don't know is broken!
Maybe I'm not like all people, maybe I am like the doctors said, "special".
March 23, 2015 at 9:57 am
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
March 23, 2015 at 9:59 am
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
March 23, 2015 at 10:00 am
venoym (3/23/2015)
I don't normally weigh in on the gender imbalance conversations. However, I think that there is more to it than any of us has, or can, present. I heard the riddle many years ago (probably was 10 or 12 at the time), but the person asking the riddle didn't give me time to come up with an answer. Since then, it has had an effect on my interactions with both genders. I like to say that I don't care if you are blue, black, green, orange, or Pink & purple polkadots (though you will need to excuse me if I ask if you need medical attention). I was raised as a 2nd or 3rd generation that did not regard skin color at all, neither do I regard gender in reference to skills and talents. I was 18 years old and in College before I realized that people in this world today do things to each other based only on skin color, I had never seen or heard of that before.The above is to bring me to the point that if you don't have skills, don't claim gender bias... sometimes people just stink. Obviously Gail and Brandy (among others that I can't remember the names of) are highly skilled and I would be honored to ask them questions. Though, I get accused of being argumentative because I ask questions until I understand something (which comes off sometimes as highly criticizing someone else's abilities). I have found that I might ask 2 or 3 sources before making a conclusion. So if I happen to ask a woman first, but then come to the same conclusion after talking to 2 men... it doesn't mean I didn't value her input. I could just as easily have asked her last and come to the same conclusion... it's simply a matter of who I ran into first in a situation where I could ask questions and that might know about the problem I was solving.
I do, however, dislike being put into a category of "men" that do these dumb and wrong things. I also dislike not being told that something I've done has been a problem, I can't fix what I don't know is broken!
Maybe I'm not like all people, maybe I am like the doctors said, "special".
Very well stated and spot on. You're not alone on any of that but, according to the people I've run into outside the world of SQL Server and some inside, you'd think it was an extremely rare thing whether on the giving or the receiving side of things.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 23, 2015 at 10:21 am
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
Amazing what adding 0x53 to a hint can do!
😎
March 23, 2015 at 10:29 am
I think the point I was trying to make has been missed. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well, so I'm going to try again.
I'm not trying to bash anyone specifically, but it's hard to have a conversation about bias (any kind of bias) when every respondent's reaction is "that's not me." It's especially hard when people add in the "I've never seen that" bit to their response. In fact, that later response tends to make those speaking up feel guilty or pressured into not speaking. I almost didn't post this because I was raised to shy away from conflict. Then I realized that was a poor excuse for avoiding a sensitive subject that I feel must be discussed. So, here goes.
Whether it's about gender or skin color or religion or even politics, having conversations about bias is difficult. We all want to be above the fray. But even everyone here feels that they judge on skill rather than other non-controllable variables, we still need to have the conversation. Because though we may be enlightened, not everyone is. If they were, we wouldn't need laws like the Civil Rights Act or the Fair Pay Act.
So, let's turn the conversation around. Let's talk about the future, instead of the past. No more "I don't (and haven't) done that." Let's look at it from this perspective:
How can we change the paradigm of bias? What can we do to make minorities feel more welcome in the workplace? How do we stop other people from filtering based on gender or skin color or the fact that the potential employee likes a baseball team that we hate?
How do we make non-bias more contagious than bias? (if that's even possible.)
We're all smart people. Surely we can figure out how to win other people over to the idea of judging based on merit and ability rather than other variables.
March 23, 2015 at 12:01 pm
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
Come on, don't hold back....\o/.../\....
😎
March 23, 2015 at 2:10 pm
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
I think the point I was trying to make has been missed. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well, so I'm going to try again.I'm not trying to bash anyone specifically, but it's hard to have a conversation about bias (any kind of bias) when every respondent's reaction is "that's not me." It's especially hard when people add in the "I've never seen that" bit to their response. In fact, that later response tends to make those speaking up feel guilty or pressured into not speaking. I almost didn't post this because I was raised to shy away from conflict. Then I realized that was a poor excuse for avoiding a sensitive subject that I feel must be discussed. So, here goes.
Whether it's about gender or skin color or religion or even politics, having conversations about bias is difficult. We all want to be above the fray. But even everyone here feels that they judge on skill rather than other non-controllable variables, we still need to have the conversation. Because though we may be enlightened, not everyone is. If they were, we wouldn't need laws like the Civil Rights Act or the Fair Pay Act.
So, let's turn the conversation around. Let's talk about the future, instead of the past. No more "I don't (and haven't) done that." Let's look at it from this perspective:
How can we change the paradigm of bias? What can we do to make minorities feel more welcome in the workplace? How do we stop other people from filtering based on gender or skin color or the fact that the potential employee likes a baseball team that we hate?
How do we make non-bias more contagious than bias? (if that's even possible.)
We're all smart people. Surely we can figure out how to win other people over to the idea of judging based on merit and ability rather than other variables.
Very well stated Brandie. I agree.
I have a motto that my wife hates because I use it so much and that is "Do better next time." It means, learn from the past and do better when you can actually make a difference. We can't change the past, only the future. Each of us needs to look at what has happened and then think about what we can do better in the future. It really is that simple.
The only real problem is that the people who are doing this stuff, they don't listen to (or participate in) the conversation.
By all means, bring it up! Let's do this in a constructive light that removes stereotypes (as you are doing!). Your point about making it harder is well taken, I realize that my post could be taken as dismissive when it was simply somewhat defensive. I really wasn't trying to be either one, I was attempting to explain how that something to me is perfectly innocent and fine could be taken the wrong way simply because it's viewed differently.
My example of asking a woman a question, but backing it up by talking to others was aimed at the stereotype of assuming an intent across a group from the actions of a few. I am not a woman, I have not seen that type of thing occurring in my presence. I would like to think that I would attempt to peer coach the person who did that on the proper behavior. In my current industry if you don't peer coach when things like this happen, then you get in trouble (we also have a saying that "perfect isn't quite good enough", but that's a different story).
Again Brandie, I support having the conversation and valuing the views and voices that participate. If you feel that someone is attempting to prevent you, let us know... I'm pretty sure we will take that torch and use it on them for you :hehe:
March 24, 2015 at 3:01 am
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
I think the point I was trying to make has been missed.....
I was going to say something similar, but decided against it. Then a friend posted a blog post in the same vein last night. He said it much better than I could, so I'll just link his post.
http://fjordsofafrica.blogspot.com/2015/03/compare-and-contrast.html
I have another friend (who's the one who posted the second example in the above blog post in fact) who's reaction to any discussion of gender (or other forms of) bias is basically "That doesn't happen". It makes it incredibly difficult to have a conversation about any related topic as his default position is that anyone claiming they've experienced any incidents of bias against them actually means 'Waaaaahhh, I'm not special enough! Pay attention to ME!'.
I mentioned once to him (in a conversation about IoT) that I'd had threats made against me on twitter and his immediate reply (without any knowledge of the actual event) was 'They weren't serious, anyone can make idle threats'. It shuts the conversation down immediately
Please, neither Brandie nor I are accusing anyone here of anything. We're saying 'This kind of thing happens.'
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 24, 2015 at 5:57 am
These are awfully flat jars.
I love history. "We jousted on a pile of garbage."
March 24, 2015 at 6:01 am
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
erm...yeah
I think we all saw that softball lobbed up there.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 24, 2015 at 8:29 am
SQLRNNR (3/24/2015)
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
erm...yeah
I think we all saw that softball lobbed up there.
Yup, but I don't think anyone's going to hit it. Too easy. 😛
March 24, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Ed Wagner (3/24/2015)
SQLRNNR (3/24/2015)
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
erm...yeah
I think we all saw that softball lobbed up there.
Yup, but I don't think anyone's going to hit it. Too easy. 😛
That'd be a low blow.:sick:
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 24, 2015 at 3:58 pm
SQLRNNR (3/24/2015)
Ed Wagner (3/24/2015)
SQLRNNR (3/24/2015)
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/23/2015)
GilaMonster (3/23/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (3/22/2015)
Now where is the Crystal Ball?😎
If you find it, I think this query can only be done if the WITH (CrystalBall) join hint is used.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1670606-391-1.aspx
Thanks Gail, thinking of using the undocumented WITH(NOBALL) instead as the Crystal Ball is nowhere to be found:-D
😎
MUST ... CONTROL ... BAD JOKE ... IMPULSE ....
erm...yeah
I think we all saw that softball lobbed up there.
Yup, but I don't think anyone's going to hit it. Too easy. 😛
That'd be a low blow.:sick:
Kind of disappointed here, laid a "perfect" trap and no one took the bait.
😎
PS: Jason, even soft-balls hurts if unsuspectingly entering the Crystal region:hehe:
March 24, 2015 at 4:39 pm
GilaMonster (3/24/2015)
Brandie Tarvin (3/23/2015)
I think the point I was trying to make has been missed.....I was going to say something similar, but decided against it. Then a friend posted a blog post in the same vein last night. He said it much better than I could, so I'll just link his post.
http://fjordsofafrica.blogspot.com/2015/03/compare-and-contrast.html
I have another friend (who's the one who posted the second example in the above blog post in fact) who's reaction to any discussion of gender (or other forms of) bias is basically "That doesn't happen". It makes it incredibly difficult to have a conversation about any related topic as his default position is that anyone claiming they've experienced any incidents of bias against them actually means 'Waaaaahhh, I'm not special enough! Pay attention to ME!'.
I mentioned once to him (in a conversation about IoT) that I'd had threats made against me on twitter and his immediate reply (without any knowledge of the actual event) was 'They weren't serious, anyone can make idle threats'. It shuts the conversation down immediately
Please, neither Brandie nor I are accusing anyone here of anything. We're saying 'This kind of thing happens.'
Part of what I'm about to post has already been Said in a Twitter conversation between Brandie, Sioban and myself yesterday. I'm sorry if my frankness is going to hit a nerve, but I think it has be said.
What I find disturbing is the assumption that men are sexist and if they say they don't do that it's just "not-meing". Isn't that sexism? Is it more acceptable just because we're privileged males in a man's world? I don't think so.
As a man, I've always tried my best to treat all people in the same way regardless of gender. Whether I succeeded or failed, I've always tried my best. I'm aware that there some bad things that we do without noticing and I acknowledge that the problem exists.
I have two little girls (one is 5, the other one's birth is expected in two weeks or so) and I know that they will have to live in a world where men are privileged. I try to teach Giulia (my 5yo) that she can do everything that males do, that she has the same abilities and the same possibilities. I teach her that there are no girls' games and no boys' games, no men's job and no women's job.
Only education can change what children would do without adults' intervention: be sexist. Children are incredibly sexist: girls tend to play with girls only, boys tend to play with boys only. When she complains about "males" taking away her toys or ruining her games at school, I always tell her that there is no "males": it's Riccardo, it's Giorgio or whoever did the thing. It's an endless fight with wrong examples in the society and a continuous bombing from TV with its stereotyped models in advertising and cartoons.
My wife and I are working hard on our part: we're trying to raise our children with the least gender bias possible. If I say that I'm not sexist, I'm not expecting anyone to believe me based on my own word only, but I'm not going to accept to be deprived of the benefit of doubt because man = male chauvinist pig.
If any of you here says "I don't do that", it's not "not-meing" in my opinion and I'm going to believe you until proven otherwise. People here has proven themselves exceptional in many ways and I'll keep considering everybody above the average in this regard as well.
-- Gianluca Sartori
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