March 18, 2015 at 12:06 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cce
Quick thought, do not ever ever ever judge the book by it's cover
😎
March 18, 2015 at 12:31 pm
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Jack Corbett (3/18/2015)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cceThat was an interesting read. I can't disagree with any of it, but I can honestly say I don't think any of the negative reactions mentioned by the writer are ones I have had.
I've a couple times (here and elsewhere) had the "You should read that article properly.", "I wrote the article"
I've had people assume I'm not technical but that the male colleagues with me are.
I've had a case where the client's senior dev outright told me that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but when my male colleague repeated the statements he was believed.
Multiple times people have assumed, prior to meeting me, that my title (when they have my name and surname) is 'Mr'. My usual reply there is that my father is retired and hence won't be coming (he was also in IT, former developer)
I've had cases where, at a meeting with a client, people will initially speak to my boss (male), not to me.
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
Yup.
Not wanting to insult anyone here (really, trying not to, promise), but these reactions are ingrained and not something that most people would even be aware of unless it was explicitly called out. It's subtle, we don't necessarily notice it.
For the people saying 'I'd never do that', go ask a female colleague of yours if you ever have, or ask her when something like that last happened.
Other sad thing, I don't notice much when things like that happen, as I expect it.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 18, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Jack Corbett (3/18/2015)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cceThat was an interesting read. I can't disagree with any of it, but I can honestly say I don't think any of the negative reactions mentioned by the writer are ones I have had.
I've a couple times (here and elsewhere) had the "You should read that article properly.", "I wrote the article"
I've had people assume I'm not technical but that the male colleagues with me are.
I've had a case where the client's senior dev outright told me that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but when my male colleague repeated the statements he was believed.
Multiple times people have assumed, prior to meeting me, that my title (when they have my name and surname) is 'Mr'. My usual reply there is that my father is retired and hence won't be coming (he was also in IT, former developer)
I've had cases where, at a meeting with a client, people will initially speak to my boss (male), not to me.
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
It's not that I don't believe you, Jack, but as Gail has so aptly illustrated, men tend to do some of these things so naturally that they don't see it in themselves on the occasions that they do act in this mannter.
It's the subtle sexism of the industry, unfortunately.
I got a new coworker a couple of years ago who knows less about SQL Server than I do. Every time he would ask me a question, he would go ask someone else the same question to validate my input. Part of it was that he didn't like the answers I was giving him. Part of it, I'm sure, was that he couldn't bring himself to trust the input of a female coworker. I'm sure there are other reasons, but he's not the only man who has done that to me.
Usually when women ask the question, if they don't like the answer, they ask me if there's another answer. They don't tend to treat my response as "an uninformed opinion."
I was like that occasionally when I was young, but as I got older I made it a point to check those reactions whenever I was in a situation where it might happen. Part of it was because I remembered who got me in to tech in the first place: my mom. Back when I was still pretending to be male if a woman coder/DBA said something and it was being ignored, if I repeated it I made sure to always say "As [woman's name] said" before repeating it. I don't know that it did much good, but I had to do something. It isn't hard to train yourself out of these reactions and it helps to lead by example.
Back when I was pretending to be a man, I was always subtly encouraged to have those described behaviors and actions. People around me did them all the time. I did my best to make sure women and POC were included in the conversation, to not talk over them, to make sure as best I could that they were actually listened to. It has always been the most worthwhile part of work for me. I don't know how well it worked. I always tried to be subtle about it since overtly calling it out can be embarrassing or condescending. I'm sure I screwed up often and if I noticed a bad reaction from the person in question I made sure to examine what I'd been saying and doing and try to fix it.
Anyway, that's enough of me babbling about this. I will say that now that I'm out as a woman I do notice reactions to my statements are changing. Not at work so much, but where they don't know me. Whether that's because I'm a woman or because I'm a trans woman I don't know, but it is there. It is fascinating and horrible.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
March 18, 2015 at 12:44 pm
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Jack Corbett (3/18/2015)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cceThat was an interesting read. I can't disagree with any of it, but I can honestly say I don't think any of the negative reactions mentioned by the writer are ones I have had.
I've a couple times (here and elsewhere) had the "You should read that article properly.", "I wrote the article"
I've had people assume I'm not technical but that the male colleagues with me are.
I've had a case where the client's senior dev outright told me that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but when my male colleague repeated the statements he was believed.
Multiple times people have assumed, prior to meeting me, that my title (when they have my name and surname) is 'Mr'. My usual reply there is that my father is retired and hence won't be coming (he was also in IT, former developer)
I've had cases where, at a meeting with a client, people will initially speak to my boss (male), not to me.
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
Yup.
Not wanting to insult anyone here (really, trying not to, promise), but these reactions are ingrained and not something that most people would even be aware of unless it was explicitly called out. It's subtle, we don't necessarily notice it.
For the people saying 'I'd never do that', go ask a female colleague of yours if you ever have, or ask her when something like that last happened.
Other sad thing, I don't notice much when things like that happen, as I expect it.
It is baked right into the culture. It is "normal" and so it is harder to see, especially in yourself. I try to work hard at fixing my own sexism and racism and any other ism there is out there. Even if you do it well, it is part of all the expectations that swirl around you and you have to consciously push back.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
March 18, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Jack Corbett (3/18/2015)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cceThat was an interesting read. I can't disagree with any of it, but I can honestly say I don't think any of the negative reactions mentioned by the writer are ones I have had.
I've a couple times (here and elsewhere) had the "You should read that article properly.", "I wrote the article"
I've had people assume I'm not technical but that the male colleagues with me are.
I've had a case where the client's senior dev outright told me that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but when my male colleague repeated the statements he was believed.
Multiple times people have assumed, prior to meeting me, that my title (when they have my name and surname) is 'Mr'. My usual reply there is that my father is retired and hence won't be coming (he was also in IT, former developer)
I've had cases where, at a meeting with a client, people will initially speak to my boss (male), not to me.
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
It's not that I don't believe you, Jack, but as Gail has so aptly illustrated, men tend to do some of these things so naturally that they don't see it in themselves on the occasions that they do act in this mannter.
It's the subtle sexism of the industry, unfortunately.
I got a new coworker a couple of years ago who knows less about SQL Server than I do. Every time he would ask me a question, he would go ask someone else the same question to validate my input. Part of it was that he didn't like the answers I was giving him. Part of it, I'm sure, was that he couldn't bring himself to trust the input of a female coworker. I'm sure there are other reasons, but he's not the only man who has done that to me.
Usually when women ask the question, if they don't like the answer, they ask me if there's another answer. They don't tend to treat my response as "an uninformed opinion."
At the risk of sounding like a bigot, I was not going to chime in on this topic. Hopefully I can communicate my thoughts without putting my foot in my mouth.
First off, I agree that everyone should be treated equally and judged by their capabilities, not by their gender, appearance, race, etc. I don't understand how a male could dismiss a female's answer just because they are female. You asked them in the first place because you evidently valued their opinion - on some level. I also can't fathom disrespecting a speaker. If they are presenting at a conference, I don't care what they look like or act like...or really even what they say, I'm impressed because they have the guts to talk in front of other people and share their knowledge.
That being said, I do judge people before I talk to them, and I bet almost everyone does, even if you don't admit it. I judge on appearance though, and I actually expect other people to judge me that way too. If I see someone at a technical conference dressed all in black with chains and spiked hair, I'm going to wonder about them. Same thing about a "girly girl". They just don't fit the sterotypical IT person, and like it or not, everything has stereotypes. Being an oddity, you attract attention and are a distraction. Now, if I overhear these people providing technical insights, I'm not going to disregard them, I'm simply going to be a bit surprised and it may take some extra time to convince me you know what you are talking about. It's really the same thing with age. On sight, would you be more comfortable with the 45 year old DBA or the 25 year old DBA?
Perhaps that is just my own personality though, because I attended an anime convention for the first time a few years back because a friend was running it and felt really out of place because I was wearing a collared shirt and jeans. I just felt too...normal, and I felt like most of the vendors disregarded me because I didn't look the part.
March 18, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Classifying any person as inferior based on gender, race, religion, health, physical condition or any other irrelevant aspects or properties is both appalling and unprofessional. Under no circumstances should such a behaviour be tolerated or ignored.
😎
March 18, 2015 at 1:41 pm
SqlSanctum (3/18/2015)
At the risk of sounding like a bigot, I was not going to chime in on this topic. Hopefully I can communicate my thoughts without putting my foot in my mouth.First off, I agree that everyone should be treated equally and judged by their capabilities, not by their gender, appearance, race, etc. I don't understand how a male could dismiss a female's answer just because they are female. You asked them in the first place because you evidently valued their opinion - on some level. I also can't fathom disrespecting a speaker. If they are presenting at a conference, I don't care what they look like or act like...or really even what they say, I'm impressed because they have the guts to talk in front of other people and share their knowledge.
That being said, I do judge people before I talk to them, and I bet almost everyone does, even if you don't admit it. I judge on appearance though, and I actually expect other people to judge me that way too. If I see someone at a technical conference dressed all in black with chains and spiked hair, I'm going to wonder about them. Same thing about a "girly girl". They just don't fit the sterotypical IT person, and like it or not, everything has stereotypes. Being an oddity, you attract attention and are a distraction. Now, if I overhear these people providing technical insights, I'm not going to disregard them, I'm simply going to be a bit surprised and it may take some extra time to convince me you know what you are talking about. It's really the same thing with age. On sight, would you be more comfortable with the 45 year old DBA or the 25 year old DBA?
Perhaps that is just my own personality though, because I attended an anime convention for the first time a few years back because a friend was running it and felt really out of place because I was wearing a collared shirt and jeans. I just felt too...normal, and I felt like most of the vendors disregarded me because I didn't look the part.
Well said. I too try not to judge, however I know I do. :ermm:
I try and listen to everyone, however I also tend to defer to everyone as I have low confidence.
March 18, 2015 at 2:54 pm
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Jack Corbett (3/18/2015)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cceThat was an interesting read. I can't disagree with any of it, but I can honestly say I don't think any of the negative reactions mentioned by the writer are ones I have had.
I've a couple times (here and elsewhere) had the "You should read that article properly.", "I wrote the article"
I've had people assume I'm not technical but that the male colleagues with me are.
I've had a case where the client's senior dev outright told me that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but when my male colleague repeated the statements he was believed.
Multiple times people have assumed, prior to meeting me, that my title (when they have my name and surname) is 'Mr'. My usual reply there is that my father is retired and hence won't be coming (he was also in IT, former developer)
I've had cases where, at a meeting with a client, people will initially speak to my boss (male), not to me.
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
Yup.
Not wanting to insult anyone here (really, trying not to, promise), but these reactions are ingrained and not something that most people would even be aware of unless it was explicitly called out. It's subtle, we don't necessarily notice it.
For the people saying 'I'd never do that', go ask a female colleague of yours if you ever have, or ask her when something like that last happened.
Other sad thing, I don't notice much when things like that happen, as I expect it.
Other sad thing...
The same guys/gals that behave this way also treat guys in the same way. These guys do not accept answers from people outside their "circle". Call it bravado or machismo or whatever. They feel threatened and react/behave stupidly.
I had a female boss once upon a time that acted this same exact way. She had an inner circle of friends that she trusted in the workplace. My company acquired her company and she worked feverishly to sabotage the work of all of us from the acquiring company (male and female alike).
I point that out because the behavior is seen in all genders (albeit predominantly in jerkwad men). We could all start to act more decently towards others.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 18, 2015 at 5:20 pm
I'm not claiming to be unbiased, I'm saying my biases aren't around ability to do the job. I don't care if what gender, race, religion, age you are if you can do the job and go about it professionally I'll work with you. I do have problems working with people who consider any discussion of their ideas/designs/code a personal attack, we can't get better if we don't have discussions. I've worked with people, both male and female, who do this and I it drives me nuts. Yes, I can be direct, but I've worked very hard to become more tactful and less confrontational in my approach, to some success, although I still have a ways to go. I might be good at that by the time I'm ready to retire:-P Still the main thing I get dinged on in reviews, this year I was even told I come across as arrogant and I thought I'd beaten that one about 5 years ago.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
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March 18, 2015 at 6:18 pm
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
GilaMonster (3/18/2015)
Jack Corbett (3/18/2015)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cceThat was an interesting read. I can't disagree with any of it, but I can honestly say I don't think any of the negative reactions mentioned by the writer are ones I have had.
I've a couple times (here and elsewhere) had the "You should read that article properly.", "I wrote the article"
I've had people assume I'm not technical but that the male colleagues with me are.
I've had a case where the client's senior dev outright told me that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but when my male colleague repeated the statements he was believed.
Multiple times people have assumed, prior to meeting me, that my title (when they have my name and surname) is 'Mr'. My usual reply there is that my father is retired and hence won't be coming (he was also in IT, former developer)
I've had cases where, at a meeting with a client, people will initially speak to my boss (male), not to me.
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
It's not that I don't believe you, Jack, but as Gail has so aptly illustrated, men tend to do some of these things so naturally that they don't see it in themselves on the occasions that they do act in this mannter.
It's the subtle sexism of the industry, unfortunately.
I got a new coworker a couple of years ago who knows less about SQL Server than I do. Every time he would ask me a question, he would go ask someone else the same question to validate my input. Part of it was that he didn't like the answers I was giving him. Part of it, I'm sure, was that he couldn't bring himself to trust the input of a female coworker. I'm sure there are other reasons, but he's not the only man who has done that to me.
Usually when women ask the question, if they don't like the answer, they ask me if there's another answer. They don't tend to treat my response as "an uninformed opinion."
From what I've read, gender biases are so deeply ingrained in us that even the psychologists have difficulty sorting it out. I can't say I don't act that way, because I'm sure some people (men) do so without even realizing they're doing it. I can say I try not to (as Erikur put it later on), judge a book by its cover. Whether I am successful at it or not, only the person on the receiving end would be able to tell.
I can disclose one fact. At my company, 90% of developers are men. Likewise, 90% of testers are women. I don't think we have a specific policy enforcing that (and I'm sure we don't have one against it). It is just the way the numbers shake out.
A lot of gender-bias in the programming area probably has a lot to do with similar numbers (individuals not being used to working with women in the field), and while I recognize that these numbers may not be so distinct in western countries, my guess is that programmers still trend towards being male in the majority of them.
My thought question: Have you ever been told that your query runs too fast?
My advice:
INDEXing a poor-performing query is like putting sugar on cat food. Yeah, it probably tastes better but are you sure you want to eat it?
The path of least resistance can be a slippery slope. Take care that fixing your fixes of fixes doesn't snowball and end up costing you more than fixing the root cause would have in the first place.
Need to UNPIVOT? Why not CROSS APPLY VALUES instead?[/url]
Since random numbers are too important to be left to chance, let's generate some![/url]
Learn to understand recursive CTEs by example.[/url]
[url url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/St
March 19, 2015 at 2:43 am
We don't always realize that we do that, it's true.
If you think it's not possible, that you are different, just read this article: http://www.bu.edu/today/2014/bu-research-riddle-reveals-the-depth-of-gender-bias/
What is really surprising is that even a significant number of women was unable to solve the riddle. The gender bias is part of our perception of the world. We have to do something about it, but I think that whatever we do will change the world for our children, not so much for ourselves: we're too old to drop that bias completely.
-- Gianluca Sartori
March 19, 2015 at 7:09 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/18/2015)
For your discussion: https://medium.com/@sailorhg/coding-like-a-girl-595b90791cce
I it's a very important issue, and I absolutely agree with everything she says other than "feminists chide women who present as feminine". No, feminists don't, idiots do. None of the feminists I know would tolerate that BS and wouldn't give anyone coming out with that nonsense the lickings of a dog.
While I'm sure it's not universal, in those situations where people have come out with the (usually semi-disguised);
girls can't code,
she's only got where she is 'cos of her looks / because she's female,
anything containing the classic pointer to utter nonsense " ... just political correctness ... ",
I don't have to take advice from that (highly capable) *woman* <- this one just got shown the door
for the most part (not all, admittedly) the woman has been very good, I have honestly never heard a good, or even IMO adequate guy come out with that.
The problem is theirs and if they're unable to adjust, behave in an intelligent or mature manner, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it
I'm a DBA.
I'm not paid to solve problems. I'm paid to prevent them.
March 19, 2015 at 9:17 am
dwain.c (3/18/2015)
I can disclose one fact. At my company, 90% of developers are men. Likewise, 90% of testers are women. I don't think we have a specific policy enforcing that (and I'm sure we don't have one against it). It is just the way the numbers shake out.
At my company, we have at most two women developers (that includes myself) at any one time if I'm just looking at the straight developer / DBAs. But if I include our reporting / BI team, we have six. Now the DBA numbers shake out at 66% male, 33% female (there are three of us). The reporting / BI team numbers shake out closer to 60 / 40 (again favoring the males), and the Dev team shakes out closer to 95 / 5 (since there's only one woman on their team).
Our testers were (at one point) mostly female until one migrated over to the reporting team and the staff got increased because of a higher workload. They are closer to 50-50, though there is one more male, and the manager is female. The managers of all other teams are male.
I remember doing some interviews for a DBA many years ago, and I found the only female applicant had either lied or exagerrated her experience. It broke my heart because I really wanted another woman around the office. But then, these applications were coming from contracting agencies, so I wonder how many women were filtered out before we got to her. Or if there really was that small a number of women DBAs in the area.
March 19, 2015 at 9:56 am
Brandie Tarvin (3/18/2015)
The sad thing is, almost every guy when offered this perspective, always replies "I don't think I'm like that." None of them every say "I'll pay attention when I interact with a woman and see whether or not I do any of the things on the list."
When presumed guilty the first reaction is usally to defend one's own actions and motives. I work hard every day to be kind to everyone (I tend to be a bit blunt), but if I'm being tossed under the bus, I know my inital reaction would be to dispel the misconception. That however doesn't mean that I am not mindful or don't look for any of signs of problems in my own behavior, it just means I am dealing with the largest disconnect first.
Just be mindful that you're not really giving those folks the benefit of the doubt either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
March 19, 2015 at 9:58 am
Brandie Tarvin (3/19/2015)
I remember doing some interviews for a DBA many years ago, and I found the only female applicant had either lied or exagerrated her experience. It broke my heart because I really wanted another woman around the office. But then, these applications were coming from contracting agencies, so I wonder how many women were filtered out before we got to her. Or if there really was that small a number of women DBAs in the area.
I don't think that lying on a resume is specific to any group of people. Sadly, I find that it's very common.
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