July 30, 2014 at 10:25 am
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
July 30, 2014 at 10:32 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
And you are entitled to your opinion. It is my perception that you refuse to accept our reasoning for rejecting their approach to helping others. As I have said, it seems that they have no problem perpetuating inefficient and un-scalable solutions to peoples questions, keeping them in the dark to better and more efficient ways of completely various tasks, from learning new tools that will benefit them in the future.
July 30, 2014 at 10:34 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
Wow, no. That's not in any way what I was going for. Good gosh. This is an absolutely free and open forum. Debate and questioning aren't just welcomed, they're encouraged. I wasn't trying to call you out or take away your right to speak or anything like that. I was just trying to understand why it was important to you, because it sure seems to be. Man, I tried so hard to be extremely self-effacing and self-disparaging in that post. I really am just trying to understand. I'm sorry it was taken that way. I apologize. Clearly we'll have to just agree to not understand each other and leave it at that.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
July 30, 2014 at 10:56 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
And you are entitled to your opinion. It is my perception that you refuse to accept our reasoning for rejecting their approach to helping others. As I have said, it seems that they have no problem perpetuating inefficient and un-scalable solutions to peoples questions, keeping them in the dark to better and more efficient ways of completely various tasks, from learning new tools that will benefit them in the future.
I do think your characterization in the last paragraph of this post I'm replying to isn't entirely something I would agree with. I think there are parts of SO that could use improvement, but I wouldn't "reject their approach," because thats pretty much all or nothing right? Do I think they perpetuate "inneficient and un-scalable solutions" or "keeping them in the dark", well no. Do they teach in the manner of SSC, no I don't think so, and they've stated as such that this isn't their mission.
July 30, 2014 at 11:21 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
And you are entitled to your opinion. It is my perception that you refuse to accept our reasoning for rejecting their approach to helping others. As I have said, it seems that they have no problem perpetuating inefficient and un-scalable solutions to peoples questions, keeping them in the dark to better and more efficient ways of completely various tasks, from learning new tools that will benefit them in the future.
I do think your characterization in the last paragraph of this post I'm replying to isn't entirely something I would agree with. I think there are parts of SO that could use improvement, but I wouldn't "reject their approach," because thats pretty much all or nothing right? Do I think they perpetuate "inneficient and un-scalable solutions" or "keeping them in the dark", well no. Do they teach in the manner of SSC, no I don't think so, and they've stated as such that this isn't their mission.
First, let's be clear, I reject their approach. Based on the comments in this thread, including yours, they do promote inefficient and un-scalable solutions when they use a simple "Just answer the question" approach and shutdown people who try to show an OP a better way to accomplish a task. Is that better?
Also, if this is teaching, I want no part of it. It is simply giving the person a fish. When that fish is gone, what do they have, nothing. Knowing better ways to accomplish a task, understanding what is going on behind the scenes, this things are very important, especially when you have the keys to a companies crown jewels, its data. You are going to get that from a "here is your answer, goodbye" environment.
July 30, 2014 at 11:40 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
And you are entitled to your opinion. It is my perception that you refuse to accept our reasoning for rejecting their approach to helping others. As I have said, it seems that they have no problem perpetuating inefficient and un-scalable solutions to peoples questions, keeping them in the dark to better and more efficient ways of completely various tasks, from learning new tools that will benefit them in the future.
I do think your characterization in the last paragraph of this post I'm replying to isn't entirely something I would agree with. I think there are parts of SO that could use improvement, but I wouldn't "reject their approach," because thats pretty much all or nothing right? Do I think they perpetuate "inneficient and un-scalable solutions" or "keeping them in the dark", well no. Do they teach in the manner of SSC, no I don't think so, and they've stated as such that this isn't their mission.
First, let's be clear, I reject their approach. Based on the comments in this thread, including yours, they do promote inefficient and un-scalable solutions when they use a simple "Just answer the question" approach and shutdown people who try to show an OP a better way to accomplish a task. Is that better?
Well the thing is, what does this do for the folks who do get help from there. Really valuable help? Can't we say that our experiences differ? When I get something from that site, I'm going to have some gratitude, and if Jason calls them out disparagingly, even the slightest hint of loyalty means I might feel entitled to defend the site that saves my bacon! Sure, it doesn't have to be theories of motivation I will hand him that 😛
Also, if this is teaching, I want no part of it. It is simply giving the person a fish. When that fish is gone, what do they have, nothing. Knowing better ways to accomplish a task, understanding what is going on behind the scenes, this things are very important, especially when you have the keys to a companies crown jewels, its data. You are going to get that from a "here is your answer, goodbye" environment.
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?
July 30, 2014 at 11:49 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
And you are entitled to your opinion. It is my perception that you refuse to accept our reasoning for rejecting their approach to helping others. As I have said, it seems that they have no problem perpetuating inefficient and un-scalable solutions to peoples questions, keeping them in the dark to better and more efficient ways of completely various tasks, from learning new tools that will benefit them in the future.
I do think your characterization in the last paragraph of this post I'm replying to isn't entirely something I would agree with. I think there are parts of SO that could use improvement, but I wouldn't "reject their approach," because thats pretty much all or nothing right? Do I think they perpetuate "inneficient and un-scalable solutions" or "keeping them in the dark", well no. Do they teach in the manner of SSC, no I don't think so, and they've stated as such that this isn't their mission.
First, let's be clear, I reject their approach. Based on the comments in this thread, including yours, they do promote inefficient and un-scalable solutions when they use a simple "Just answer the question" approach and shutdown people who try to show an OP a better way to accomplish a task. Is that better?
Well the thing is, what does this do for the folks who do get help from there. Really valuable help? Can't we say that our experiences differ? When I get something from that site, I'm going to have some gratitude, and if Jason calls them out disparagingly, even the slightest hint of loyalty means I might feel entitled to defend the site that saves my bacon! Sure, it doesn't have to be theories of motivation I will hand him that 😛
Also, if this is teaching, I want no part of it. It is simply giving the person a fish. When that fish is gone, what do they have, nothing. Knowing better ways to accomplish a task, understanding what is going on behind the scenes, this things are very important, especially when you have the keys to a companies crown jewels, its data. You are going to get that from a "here is your answer, goodbye" environment.
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?
Sorry to jump in at this late point, but I think that in large part depends on your definition of "working". Is a cursor going to work? Sure. Is it going to be the best solution? Probably not. (Emphasis on probably.) I drove my Pathfinder into the ground, but I certainly don't regret trading it in for a Prius. Continually learning the best way to achieve a task is essential to maintaining a good, long career. The cursor might work right now, but I've seen giving that answer in an interview cost people jobs.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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July 30, 2014 at 11:52 am
I wasn't following the conversation about SO because I personally haven't spent much time there. But it persisted long enough to make it worth reading back from the beginning. If this were any other thread than The Thread, I believe Steve would have shut it down by now.
Grant, I don't think you have anything to apologize for.
Patrick, I didn't see anything that constitutes a personal attack on you. You have a high opinion of SO. Some people have a low opinion of it. I personally have no opinion regarding SO, but I do think you're protesting too much. Nobody is challenging your right to go to SO and use it as a resource, they're just saying they have no intention of following you. Move on.
Next topic please?
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
July 30, 2014 at 11:57 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
ChrisM@Work (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
The folks who've commented are those who give a monkeys one way or the other.
I probably shouldn't have, my mistake! If someone calls SO/SE an expletitive, it doesn't need to be my business, nobody needs to know about any counterpoints I would possess, especially my admiration for the site and the folks who built it and run it. I get it.
The silent majority don't. I don't much care for SO/SE. Years ago, around 2004 I think, when I was deciding on a decent source of reference material for SQL Server, I touched SO/SE and SSC and found SSC way more useful because of the discussion, which likely as not pushed the "best method" to the surface. That decision still stands. SSC promotes "best methods", SO/SE don't, and can't. If all you want is a fish for your tea, go to SO/SE, and there's an argument for sending back some of the idle muppets who land here 😀
I think they're awesome, but I can certainly keep this to myself. Lesson learned!
And you are entitled to your opinion. It is my perception that you refuse to accept our reasoning for rejecting their approach to helping others. As I have said, it seems that they have no problem perpetuating inefficient and un-scalable solutions to peoples questions, keeping them in the dark to better and more efficient ways of completely various tasks, from learning new tools that will benefit them in the future.
I do think your characterization in the last paragraph of this post I'm replying to isn't entirely something I would agree with. I think there are parts of SO that could use improvement, but I wouldn't "reject their approach," because thats pretty much all or nothing right? Do I think they perpetuate "inneficient and un-scalable solutions" or "keeping them in the dark", well no. Do they teach in the manner of SSC, no I don't think so, and they've stated as such that this isn't their mission.
First, let's be clear, I reject their approach. Based on the comments in this thread, including yours, they do promote inefficient and un-scalable solutions when they use a simple "Just answer the question" approach and shutdown people who try to show an OP a better way to accomplish a task. Is that better?
Well the thing is, what does this do for the folks who do get help from there. Really valuable help? Can't we say that our experiences differ? When I get something from that site, I'm going to have some gratitude, and if Jason calls them out disparagingly, even the slightest hint of loyalty means I might feel entitled to defend the site that saves my bacon! Sure, it doesn't have to be theories of motivation I will hand him that 😛
Also, if this is teaching, I want no part of it. It is simply giving the person a fish. When that fish is gone, what do they have, nothing. Knowing better ways to accomplish a task, understanding what is going on behind the scenes, this things are very important, especially when you have the keys to a companies crown jewels, its data. You are going to get that from a "here is your answer, goodbye" environment.
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?
Okay, let's look at it.
OP: How do I write a cursor?
RS: Here's how --
DECLARE @Value1 INT,
@Value2, VARCHAR[20]; -- Just for demo purposes
DECLARE YourCursor INSENSITIVE CURSOR FOR
SELECT
CustomerId,
CustomerName
FROM
dbo.Customer
ORDER BY
CustomerId;
OPEN YourCursor;
FETCH NEXT FROM YourCursor
INTO @Value1, @Value2;
WHILE @@FETCH_STATUS = 0
BEGIN
-- Do work here
FETCH NEXT FROM YourCursor
INTO @Value1, @Value2;
END
CLOSE YourCursor
DEALLOCATE YourCursor;
Now you know how to write a cursor. Have fun storming the castle.
OP: Thanks
OP now goes off on their merry way knowing how to write a cursor. Now every problem he faces he has A tool to use, one that works one row at a time. Which may be fine when there is a limited amount of data to worry about. And what happens when he starts to nest cursors inside of cursors? Again, limited number of rows, may not really see the affect. Next a 10,000 row cursor inside another 10,000 cursor doing row by row processing and then what happens?
Suddenly he has a problem and he needs to ask another question.
I will leave it to you to figure out what could of happened had he been introduced to set-based processing instead of just being told "here is how you write a cursor" in response to his original question.
Edit: Oh, wait. That is just ONE way to write a cursor. There are several other ways to write cursors. You have keyset cursors, updatable cursors, etc.
July 30, 2014 at 12:07 pm
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?
There is a huge difference between getting the right answer and getting it efficiently. There are always a number of possible solutions to any given problem. The "best" solution in a given situation depends on any number of factors. There's nothing wrong with giving someone a deeper level of understanding instead of just saying "do this."
You are either too shallow in your understanding to realize this yet, or you understood exactly what Lynn meant and are engaging in trollish behavior. I'm done here.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
July 30, 2014 at 12:09 pm
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).
Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.
Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.
If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.
These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.
I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.
Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.
Wow, no. That's not in any way what I was going for. Good gosh. This is an absolutely free and open forum. Debate and questioning aren't just welcomed, they're encouraged.
Then whats the problem with defending SO? When folks are bored with it, the topic will taper down as usual right? There's certainly valid criticisms out there, when folks drill down into topics thats typically a benefit. What I'm wondering is maybe the watercooler isn't where folks like this conversation to happen. I can tell that maybe you're troubled because the "scarey dba" is trying to be "extremely self-effacing and self-disparaging in" well.. any post. Why are you doing this, unless you'd either like the conversation to stop or you think you're somehow offending me?
You don't have to spare my feelings, thats fine. I am not accusing anyone of "personal attacks," by golly, and you are absolutely welcome to question my motivation, either from me or anyone else. All I'm simply mentioning is that maybe I err'ed in having this conversation at the watercooler, and I don't need to do this, while I'm happy to defend SO and call out Jason's poopy post, I can find a different hobby 😀
I wasn't trying to call you out or take away your right to speak or anything like that.
I'm the one volunteering to shut up, you haven't demanded anything.
I was just trying to understand why it was important to you, because it sure seems to be.
And it is important to me, the site is clearly useful to me and others, and I should think we have the option to offer counterpoints to "the site is s#!+". Thus my replies, all I'm saying is that maybe I didn't need to defend SO, and especially here, and could have kept my feelings to myself on that one, not every topic that I feel strongly about needs to be replied to.
July 30, 2014 at 12:30 pm
...
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?
Sorry to jump in at this late point, but I think that in large part depends on your definition of "working". Is a cursor going to work? Sure. Is it going to be the best solution? Probably not. (Emphasis on probably.) I drove my Pathfinder into the ground, but I certainly don't regret trading it in for a Prius. Continually learning the best way to achieve a task is essential to maintaining a good, long career. The cursor might work right now, but I've seen giving that answer in an interview cost people jobs.
I think thats a fair assessment. Its really up to SO on that one. I'm not even going to discount Seans original point except to point out that he probably wasn't the moderator on that one. As I said, if I would have answered, I would have added something like "... and watch for performance issues" or something brief. I guess folks want all or nothing, but given the benefits I get from SO, I'm not so inflexible.
July 30, 2014 at 12:30 pm
Good grief, guys. Hey Patrick, welcome to "the Swamp", grab a martini if the still's running.
This debate is going for... four pages now? I personally don't care about SO. Occasionally they cough up something useful via google for a five year old thread and I haven't found the place inviting the few times I tried to head over there to participate. That works for me. I can start with what they answered and bring it over here for clarification and cleanup if I can't do it myself.
That about covers my opinion on the great sheep deb... errr... SO debate. However, one comment worth mentioning... Grant's actually a really nice guy. The Scary DBA bit is roughly equivalent to my evilness. I can be evil, but rarely. 🙂 All of us here though know that words have a hard time conveying tone and intent, so he was being a bit overkill with his explanation to make sure he didn't come off improperly.
I however don't worry about that so much. You made a comment earlier that you hope certain people don't read our comments in here about them. There is a reason we use initials or descriptors instead of direct names. Well, except for Celko, may his internet personality burn, and I've told him as much directly.
If they know it's about them, well, maybe they'll learn. If they don't, no harm done, it's not like it's coming up via search engine. A bit of a vent and back into the maelstrom for us.
(Mostly) Everyone's welcome in the water cooler, and you wouldn't be getting this massive string of quote pyramids if there wasn't an interest in the debate amongst the people involved. The only real rule is leave code in another thread (gets real spammy in here otherwise). That you've opened a door to a different vent for some of the participants' frustrations with the site isn't necessarily an attempt to get you to go over there and burn your account. It's just their opinions and views.
On a completely different note:
Steve, I've noticed what seems a bit of a change in balance between tech articles and editorials lately, there appears (at first glance) a lot more editorials. Are you lacking in articles or are you simply trying to catch up after your sabbatical?
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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July 30, 2014 at 12:31 pm
Although I don't believe monitors should shut down the proverbial "teach a man to fish" type of responses, there are a large number of times that even a totally undocumented/no-writeup-included bit of example code can teach an incredible amount. Consider that a good portion of the people seeking an answer won't actually just use the code as a black-box solution. Many will do the due diligence thing and lookup the things used in the code and test, test, test.
On the other hand, there will be people who do use the code without any due diligence... and, in the long run, they'll get exactly what they deserve.
I can't fault SO because it's designed (like many such forums) for quick and dirty (sometimes more dirty that some of us would like) solutions. If someone doesn't like the purpose, format, or implementation of the forum, they should just stay away and find something that suits them better.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 30, 2014 at 12:33 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Then whats the problem with defending SO?
I wasn't aware there was one. Someone offered an opinion. You disagreed. Others disagreed with you. Etc.
Where was anyone shutting you down or stopping debate? You keep implying that you've somehow been made... not sure what the right phrase is here, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or emotions in you, but... let's go with, unwelcome, because of the disagreement. Yet, what keeps happening is that people engage you on your points. No one has said, "Shut up" or even words to those effects. Seems like a pretty open discussion. Yes, people disagree with you, but hey, that happens, especially at the water cooler.. It seems like you keep taking disagreement with rejection. They're not the same.
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