Are the posted questions getting worse?
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GilaMonster (7/28/2014)
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
Could I get a show of hands of how many people really hate starting a statement with a semicolon? (;WITH) and if so, why?*Raises hand*
.It's a statement terminator (same as ; is in C#, C++) .It ends statements ,it doesn't begin them
.Using the ; at the start of the statement doesn't teach people what it is .It teaches them to blindly copy what others do
.Just the other week I saw a discussion on THROW; .A comment was made that the statement after THROW needs to start with a ; or there needs to be a GO .When asked why, the person said they didn't know ,they'd seen it that way ,it works that way and doesn't without .That's not what people should be learning
ha! Monkeys with typewriters THROWing .... something...
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
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GilaMonster (7/28/2014)
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
Could I get a show of hands of how many people really hate starting a statement with a semicolon? (;WITH) and if so, why?*Raises hand*
.It's a statement terminator (same as ; is in C#, C++) .It ends statements ,it doesn't begin them
.Using the ; at the start of the statement doesn't teach people what it is .It teaches them to blindly copy what others do
.Just the other week I saw a discussion on THROW; .A comment was made that the statement after THROW needs to start with a ; or there needs to be a GO .When asked why, the person said they didn't know ,they'd seen it that way ,it works that way and doesn't without .That's not what people should be learning
I agree that the statement terminator terminates a statement, not start the next statement. I've seen both and am not very passionate about it, but I opt to let a terminator terminate.
On an related note, it must have been really weird to type your sentences the way you did, but it sure does make the point.
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Koen Verbeeck (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from. 😛
So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?:Whistling:
The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.
I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?
They are some pretty arrogant mods over there. Topics get closed too soon and the manner on which newbies are told their questions are not up to standards by some people over there... No, thank you.
Its not perfect, and they've posted time and again on the purposes of their site, and for whatever reason they get the answers people are looking for, and there is no denying the success. I'm not going to deny your reasoning here, but it doesn't gel with the degree of loathing I'm witnessing, so I'm just wondering whats up? Did one of you 5 digit'ers get inordinately spanked over there and come back to rally the troops into a hatefest or something? Thats sort of my working theory.
Ha! Nice.
That would be cool if it were true.
The main problem I have with their site is that many of the editors (or whatever the proper term is) are extremely rude to people who are just looking for help. Yeah, maybe the question has been asked before (and maybe it's been asked 500 times before, this week), but just closing someone's post, commenting "Repeat question" and leaving the person hanging isn't helpful. And it's that lack of helpfulness that bothers me the most. We could also discuss the fact that questions must attain a level of perfection or they'll be closed down too. And, asking clarifying questions, offering opinion, or engaging in discussion are all frowned on. It's supposed to be questions and answers and nothing else. While it can work. And for those it works for, it really works well for, no question. But it can't work for everyone. Some people need the discussion. That's why this site is still chugging along pretty well.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore RooseveltAuthor of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning -
David Burrows (7/28/2014)
Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
More like sinking.Not waving, but drowning 😛
The thread is sure to test your sanity (unless you are already insane :w00t:)
It hasn't tested my insanity yet, I can produce a mad reply to anything.:crazy:
Tom
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Grant Fritchey (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Koen Verbeeck (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from. 😛
So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?:Whistling:
The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.
I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?
They are some pretty arrogant mods over there. Topics get closed too soon and the manner on which newbies are told their questions are not up to standards by some people over there... No, thank you.
Its not perfect, and they've posted time and again on the purposes of their site, and for whatever reason they get the answers people are looking for, and there is no denying the success. I'm not going to deny your reasoning here, but it doesn't gel with the degree of loathing I'm witnessing, so I'm just wondering whats up? Did one of you 5 digit'ers get inordinately spanked over there and come back to rally the troops into a hatefest or something? Thats sort of my working theory.
Ha! Nice.
That would be cool if it were true.
The main problem I have with their site is that many of the editors (or whatever the proper term is) are extremely rude to people who are just looking for help. Yeah, maybe the question has been asked before (and maybe it's been asked 500 times before, this week), but just closing someone's post, commenting "Repeat question" and leaving the person hanging isn't helpful. And it's that lack of helpfulness that bothers me the most. We could also discuss the fact that questions must attain a level of perfection or they'll be closed down too. And, asking clarifying questions, offering opinion, or engaging in discussion are all frowned on. It's supposed to be questions and answers and nothing else. While it can work. And for those it works for, it really works well for, no question. But it can't work for everyone. Some people need the discussion. That's why this site is still chugging along pretty well.
And very much appreciated by those of us who use it. I don't just answer questions, but learn a lot from other people's answers. It's the discussion that stimulates the real learning.
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Grant Fritchey (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Koen Verbeeck (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from. 😛
So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?:Whistling:
The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.
I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?
They are some pretty arrogant mods over there. Topics get closed too soon and the manner on which newbies are told their questions are not up to standards by some people over there... No, thank you.
Its not perfect, and they've posted time and again on the purposes of their site, and for whatever reason they get the answers people are looking for, and there is no denying the success. I'm not going to deny your reasoning here, but it doesn't gel with the degree of loathing I'm witnessing, so I'm just wondering whats up? Did one of you 5 digit'ers get inordinately spanked over there and come back to rally the troops into a hatefest or something? Thats sort of my working theory.
Ha! Nice.
That would be cool if it were true.
The main problem I have with their site is that many of the editors (or whatever the proper term is) are extremely rude to people who are just looking for help. Yeah, maybe the question has been asked before (and maybe it's been asked 500 times before, this week), but just closing someone's post, commenting "Repeat question" and leaving the person hanging isn't helpful. And it's that lack of helpfulness that bothers me the most. We could also discuss the fact that questions must attain a level of perfection or they'll be closed down too. And, asking clarifying questions, offering opinion, or engaging in discussion are all frowned on. It's supposed to be questions and answers and nothing else. While it can work. And for those it works for, it really works well for, no question. But it can't work for everyone. Some people need the discussion. That's why this site is still chugging along pretty well.
;It can be
;challenging
;at times
;(pun intended)
😎
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The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
I personally would do it like this;Statement1
;Statement2
;Statement3
; -- yes, one left over
Why? Because even with indentation, semicolons can get lost over on the right side of a long line.
Putting them at the start of each line on the left makes it much easier to see where a new statement is beginning. Also, if a statement needs to be expanded (ex: adding an ORDER BY clause or adding more ANDs to a WHERE clause), you don't have to worry about moving the existing semicolon at the start of the next statement.
I realize that I'm in the minority on this, and that it rises to an almost religious disagreement, but functionally, this format appears to have some advantages. I'd like to understand the fervor that leads to such emotional responses on this topic 😉
Due to that same thing I have started putting my semi-colons on the left, on its own line. That way it isn't lost on the right somewhere. And it is also harder to perceive it as starting a new statement like the common problem with CTEs.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events -
; -- This is a totally irrelevant semicolon. If it is truly a terminator, what does it terminate?
select something from something
; -- Everyone should be happy with this, because we all love whitespace.
select something from something
; -- Thought I forgot, didn't you? 😉
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills -
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I'm not objecting to this except to whatever degree noting SO's policy takes it. But it doesn't explain the degree of loathing I witness here.Several years ago, I was looking for the best site for SQL Server discussion and I settled here. I assessed Stack Overflow before I found this thread and formed my own opinion without any help. I don't hate Stack Overflow or anything...I just find it doesn't have what this site has. IMO, the people here make the biggest difference.
I too looked at a few sites some years back. The thing I noticed was that most sites are absolutely unhelpful if you ask the wrong answer, and SO is a prime example of this - ask the wrong question and you will get the wrong answer. I picked this site because it seemed (a) that if you asked the wrong question there was a good chance of people helping you to see why it was the wrong question and (b) there were lots and lots of useful articles. That doesn't mean I loathe SO, just that I find this site friendlier and more helpful - - but then I find MSDN helpful too, and colleagues have been known to claim that that proves I'm an out and out nutter.
This site has its flaws too. Its infamous context-loss bug, for example; and I think it silly when someone has asked a lucidly clear question and people say they need DDL and test data and expected results to understand it when those are clearly unneccessary if anything, given the standard of some questions, the occassional lucid one should be met with approbation, congratulations, and a fast response rather being dismissed as not providing enough information to get an answer.
And of course I don't loathe this site either, despite its faults.
Tom
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TomThomson (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I'm not objecting to this except to whatever degree noting SO's policy takes it. But it doesn't explain the degree of loathing I witness here.Several years ago, I was looking for the best site for SQL Server discussion and I settled here. I assessed Stack Overflow before I found this thread and formed my own opinion without any help. I don't hate Stack Overflow or anything...I just find it doesn't have what this site has. IMO, the people here make the biggest difference.
I too looked at a few sites some years back. The thing I noticed was that most sites are absolutely unhelpful if you ask the wrong answer, and SO is a prime example of this - ask the wrong question and you will get the wrong answer. I picked this site because it seemed (a) that if you asked the wrong question there was a good chance of people helping you to see why it was the wrong question and (b) there were lots and lots of useful articles. That doesn't mean I loathe SO, just that I find this site friendlier and more helpful - - but then I find MSDN helpful too, and colleagues have been known to claim that that proves I'm an out and out nutter.
This site has its flaws too. Its infamous context-loss bug, for example; and I think it silly when someone has asked a lucidly clear question and people say they need DDL and test data and expected results to understand it when those are clearly unneccessary if anything, given the standard of some questions, the occassional lucid one should be met with approbation, congratulations, and a fast response rather being dismissed as not providing enough information to get an answer.
And of course I don't loathe this site either, despite its faults.
Tom - You mean MSDN itself, right? If so, that doesn't make you crazy at all, as it is useful. Then again, since I find it useful, maybe that means we're both crazy. 😉
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The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
; -- This is a totally irrelevant semicolon. If it is truly a terminator, what does it terminate?select something from something
; -- Everyone should be happy with this, because we all love whitespace.
select something from something
; -- Thought I forgot, didn't you? 😉
ROFL
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events -
Lynn Pettis (7/28/2014)
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
I respect and admire all you guys for your professionalism, and often restraint, in dealing with all manner of questions. Steve does a great job of reining in those of us who sometimes are a bit too casual about it.That said, I want to needle Lynn just a little bit about one of his pet peeves. Could I get a show of hands of how many people really hate starting a statement with a semicolon? (;WITH) and if so, why?
Is it just because the documentation uses the word "terminator" instead of separator? I'm one of those people who finds it much easier to read separators, such as commas, at the beginning of a line rather than at the end of a line. Functionally, it makes no difference other than when semicolons become mandatory, you'll always have to stick an extra one at the end.
Just wanted to ask this here rather than in a thread where a totally different question was being answered.
Needle away. I also don't like leading commas, but they don't bother me like starting a CTE with a semicolon.
😀
Well, comma is a separator between members of a list, so it isn't particularly associated with the statement before it, so it's reasonable to put it where it's most convenient. semi-colon is explicitly a statement terminator, not a separator so it's clearly associated with what comes before it, not what comes after it, so it's perhaps less reasonable to put it at the beginning of what follows instead of the end of what precedes. So I'm inclined to agree with you that starting a CTE with a semicolon is more bothering than putting commas at the front of what follows them.
Of course it would have been far more sensible to ensure that SQL could continue to live without statement terminators/separators/starters and picked a different word instead of WITH to introduce a list of CTE definitions; DEFINING would have been a nice keyword for that purpose, and we would have had no need for these ugly semicolons whether as terminators or as separators.
Tom
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Grant Fritchey (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Koen Verbeeck (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from. 😛
So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?:Whistling:
The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.
I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?
They are some pretty arrogant mods over there. Topics get closed too soon and the manner on which newbies are told their questions are not up to standards by some people over there... No, thank you.
Its not perfect, and they've posted time and again on the purposes of their site, and for whatever reason they get the answers people are looking for, and there is no denying the success. I'm not going to deny your reasoning here, but it doesn't gel with the degree of loathing I'm witnessing, so I'm just wondering whats up? Did one of you 5 digit'ers get inordinately spanked over there and come back to rally the troops into a hatefest or something? Thats sort of my working theory.
Ha! Nice.
That would be cool if it were true.
The main problem I have with their site is that many of the editors (or whatever the proper term is) are extremely rude to people who are just looking for help. Yeah, maybe the question has been asked before (and maybe it's been asked 500 times before, this week), but just closing someone's post, commenting "Repeat question" and leaving the person hanging isn't helpful. And it's that lack of helpfulness that bothers me the most. We could also discuss the fact that questions must attain a level of perfection or they'll be closed down too. And, asking clarifying questions, offering opinion, or engaging in discussion are all frowned on. It's supposed to be questions and answers and nothing else. While it can work. And for those it works for, it really works well for, no question. But it can't work for everyone. Some people need the discussion. That's why this site is still chugging along pretty well.
I've seen some of the "duplicate question" posts, and I think they could maybe post a link to the question that got duplicated, I haven't seen the "extremely rude" or "50 percent incorrect" posts yall are talking about, although I'm sure some extremely rude posts are out there like any site has, especially with volunteer mods, but then again we're talking about people interacting on a site.
And, asking clarifying questions, offering opinion, or engaging in discussion are all frowned on.
You have to admit, they pretty much shout this from the hills, so its not like you guys should be surprised or anything.
-
Now THIS is a Terminator...
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills -
And, asking clarifying questions, offering opinion, or engaging in discussion are all frowned on.
You have to admit, they pretty much shout this from the hills, so its not like you guys should be surprised or anything.
It's a pity that they are frowned upon, because clarifying questions, other opinions, and discussion beyond the original scope of the question can lead to mini-seminars that add great depth of understanding to the people who follow them.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
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