July 28, 2014 at 10:56 am
Luis Cazares (7/28/2014)
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
I respect and admire all you guys for your professionalism, and often restraint, in dealing with all manner of questions. Steve does a great job of reining in those of us who sometimes are a bit too casual about it.That said, I want to needle Lynn just a little bit about one of his pet peeves. Could I get a show of hands of how many people really hate starting a statement with a semicolon? (;WITH) and if so, why?
Is it just because the documentation uses the word "terminator" instead of separator? I'm one of those people who finds it much easier to read separators, such as commas, at the beginning of a line rather than at the end of a line. Functionally, it makes no difference other than when semicolons become mandatory, you'll always have to stick an extra one at the end.
Just wanted to ask this here rather than in a thread where a totally different question was being answered.
Semicolon is not a separator, it's a terminator. The proof of that is the MERGE statement which needs to be ended with a semicolon, even if it's the only statement in a batch.
What would happen if semicolons as terminators of every statement become mandatory? Would you add them at the end and the beginning?
One thing I would LOVE is some sort of "strict" directive so that SQL Server can start enforcing the semicolon rule at our discretion, we could turn it on for code we're working on when we're migrating code to the new rules, but still have it off for code that isn't yet migrated.
July 28, 2014 at 10:56 am
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
I respect and admire all you guys for your professionalism, and often restraint, in dealing with all manner of questions. Steve does a great job of reining in those of us who sometimes are a bit too casual about it.That said, I want to needle Lynn just a little bit about one of his pet peeves. Could I get a show of hands of how many people really hate starting a statement with a semicolon? (;WITH) and if so, why?
Is it just because the documentation uses the word "terminator" instead of separator? I'm one of those people who finds it much easier to read separators, such as commas, at the beginning of a line rather than at the end of a line. Functionally, it makes no difference other than when semicolons become mandatory, you'll always have to stick an extra one at the end.
Just wanted to ask this here rather than in a thread where a totally different question was being answered.
Needle away. I also don't like leading commas, but they don't bother me like starting a CTE with a semicolon.
😀
July 28, 2014 at 11:08 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Lynn Pettis (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I'm looking at the replies in this very post. Diarrhea? Yes, probably "good natured fun" as probably seen by the threadizens, but from the outside looking in, SSC hates SO's enormous success and without knowing more, it looks "sour grapey," or alternatively, they're disrespecting your SSC ranking (which for petes sake would be even worse LOL).
Yes good natured fun that was spawned by me. As far as ranking I couldn't care less. I have posted a lot over the years. That has earned me a lot of points on here, and possibly some sort of respect based on that. I like to think that any respect for my skills are a result of those skills and not some arbitrary point system.
I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.
This to me sounds like the entirely wrong approach. You are suggesting that I should spend my time showing them how to write a cursor just so I can then spend more time to show them how not to use one? I am NOT going to teach somebody coding techniques that need to be changed just because they asked how to do it. That to me is not how a good mentoring system should work. I don't like the notion that the point of answering questions is to horde as many points as you can. The idea should be to help people learn and become better. That has been my approach here at SSC. I guess that is not how SO works.
The points actually work pretty well. Its a form of crowdsourcing, where the points come as a result of others posting their opinions about your presense on a site. SSC on the other hand generates its only rating based on the users own actions, thats why it takes manual admin intervention to remove spam attacks, and you also could get the occasional high rated users who are otherwise social malcontents who really need the boot out of here, and this is where peer ratings help. I agree that other artifacts can take place with point systems like SO but as long as you aren't actually doing spam attacks and are otherwise just participating in a socially acceptable manner, the points don't really affect you too much, its when they're really needed like in the case of actually hostile actions is when the lack of them really makes it apparent.
As far as cursors and RBAR goes, you have a valid point, on the other hand, there is no shortage of info regarding cursor performance out there.
Well, I think SSC is one of the most professional SQL Server sites this community has and we usually do a very good job of self-policing ourselves in an effort to keep it that way. Even the best of us sometimes fall and need to be held accountable for what we say and do on this site. Been there, had it done. The system usually works quite well.
LOL there is no system, there is Steve the emergency fallback. Now don't get me wrong, programming is hard, and SSC is essentially sponsored and taking on a content management system project is no small matter and SSC is clearly posting some bang up content, and I've got no gripe here. However, when folks rag on SO the giant enormous success story over there that floods my google with information, you have to expect that comparisons might possibly be considered.
I'm not sure what you mean by there is no system. I know I have stepped over the line a few times and I have been called to task over it, and not necessarily by Steve. Others have held me to a more professional standard and I appreciate it. Sometimes it has been by a follow on post to my comment(s) sometimes by a PM. It works, at least with those of us who do try to hold ourselves to a high professional standard.
July 28, 2014 at 11:11 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
One thing I would LOVE is some sort of "strict" directive so that SQL Server can start enforcing the semicolon rule at our discretion, we could turn it on for code we're working on when we're migrating code to the new rules, but still have it off for code that isn't yet migrated.
Erland Skommerskag has asked for a "SET STRICT CHECKS ON" or similar directive. However no great love from the product team.
July 28, 2014 at 11:16 am
Lynn Pettis (7/28/2014)
I know I have stepped over the line a few times and I have been called to task over it, and not necessarily by Steve. Others have held me to a more professional standard and I appreciate it. Sometimes it has been by a follow on post to my comment(s) sometimes by a PM. It works, at least with those of us who do try to hold ourselves to a high professional standard.
+1 I've gotten things wrong from time to time. It was usually something stupid, but wrong nonetheless. People have called me out on it and I thanked them for doing so. I think this is the best SQL site around and I greatly appreciate it.
July 28, 2014 at 11:17 am
Koen Verbeeck (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from. 😛
So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?:Whistling:
The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.
I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?
Glad you like SO.
I have seen roughly 50% of the answers to be wrong over there. You can't fix that unless you have asked a question. Why ask a question just to get rep? All that says is the rep is a game to play.
Rep is worthless. SSC points are worthless and I could really care less about that stuff because it doesn't translate to anything for anybody else.
But why take this to the personal attack level? I didn't see anybody attack you personally or directly. People reading the series of entries should be able to understand that it is good natured fun. If that is not obvious enough, then I apologize for the word assimilation.
Good grief, the ol "personal attack" meme again. Thats fine, have at it.
Well, if you don't like that meme, don't get personal. It's quite easy 😉
Your posts could be read as we're all a bunch of old grumpy SSC fanatics (mostly true for most people here :-P) who like to take a dump on the new shiny kid on the block, SO.
Well thats true, you guys could take it personally. After all, it IS your posts being held up for examination. For every post I replied to, they were at one time posted by someone, and maybe nothing but cheerleading was expected in return, and I can understand that. I'm certainly grasping for motivations for these posts also, so theres that. "Attack"? Well, although I don't think its necessarily a valid characterization, I don't think the characterizations of SO were worthy of posting on here either, so theres that.
Personally I don't think any of "us" is jealous over SO. SSC is a totally different site - a forum - while SO is a Q&A site with same "gamification". Here at SSC discussions are encouraged, advice is given and people can be mentored. At SO, well euhm, not 😀 But SO is great for straightforward questions and answers, where not too much debate is necessary.
I think that SO wants to be great for straightforward questions and answers, thats pretty much their mission.
July 28, 2014 at 11:26 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Koen Verbeeck (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from. 😛
So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?:Whistling:
The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.
I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?
Glad you like SO.
I have seen roughly 50% of the answers to be wrong over there. You can't fix that unless you have asked a question. Why ask a question just to get rep? All that says is the rep is a game to play.
Rep is worthless. SSC points are worthless and I could really care less about that stuff because it doesn't translate to anything for anybody else.
But why take this to the personal attack level? I didn't see anybody attack you personally or directly. People reading the series of entries should be able to understand that it is good natured fun. If that is not obvious enough, then I apologize for the word assimilation.
Good grief, the ol "personal attack" meme again. Thats fine, have at it.
Well, if you don't like that meme, don't get personal. It's quite easy 😉
Your posts could be read as we're all a bunch of old grumpy SSC fanatics (mostly true for most people here :-P) who like to take a dump on the new shiny kid on the block, SO.
Well thats true, you guys could take it personally. After all, it IS your posts being held up for examination. For every post I replied to, they were at one time posted by someone, and maybe nothing but cheerleading was expected in return, and I can understand that. I'm certainly grasping for motivations for these posts also, so theres that. "Attack"? Well, although I don't think its necessarily a valid characterization, I don't think the characterizations of SO were worthy of posting on here either, so theres that.
Personally I don't think any of "us" is jealous over SO. SSC is a totally different site - a forum - while SO is a Q&A site with same "gamification". Here at SSC discussions are encouraged, advice is given and people can be mentored. At SO, well euhm, not 😀 But SO is great for straightforward questions and answers, where not too much debate is necessary.
I think that SO wants to be great for straightforward questions and answers, thats pretty much their mission.
So it's okay to perpetuate inefficient or poor coding techniques, or in the case of SQL Server techniques that could provide erroneous or inconsistent results or won't scale well in the face of increased data and/or users. I'm sorry, but if I am asking how to do something like write a cursor and some one tells me there may be a better way without using cursors, please show me. If there is a better way to write something in C# than the way I have done it, again show me. Don't let me continue on down the road of mediocrity, help make me better and more efficient in the code I write.
July 28, 2014 at 11:27 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I don't think the characterizations of SO were worthy of posting on here either, so theres that.
This thread is our water cooler. It is a place where we can let our hair down, vent, discuss, complain about other sites. The only real rules in this thread is to keep things reasonable personable and/or professional. Maybe I crossed the line by complaining about it (although I know it isn't the first time in here). It really all started because I went there hoping to be helpful. I guess I just have to deal with the difference in culture between the two.
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July 28, 2014 at 11:33 am
You know, laying on your back outside the DFAC watching the red glow of the C-RAM firing up into the night sky to take out incoming rockets is actually a rather pretty sight. Too bad I had to fall while trying to duck and run at the same time when the sirens went off.
July 28, 2014 at 11:37 am
Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I don't think the characterizations of SO were worthy of posting on here either, so theres that.This thread is our water cooler. It is a place where we can let our hair down, vent, discuss, complain about other sites. The only real rules in this thread is to keep things reasonable personable and/or professional. Maybe I crossed the line by complaining about it (although I know it isn't the first time in here). It really all started because I went there hoping to be helpful. I guess I just have to deal with the difference in culture between the two.
Everyone can certainly call SO poop. Everyone can call posts critiquing that attitude "personal attacks." However, nobody can call "the thread" a private thread until Steve makes it that way, because occasionally someone contrary might wander in.
I had sort of wondered about that, with some of the ways you guys talk about posters, maybe making the thread private isn't that bad an idea. I guess that I'm new enough that I don't necessarily need to be in here.
July 28, 2014 at 11:51 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I don't think the characterizations of SO were worthy of posting on here either, so theres that.This thread is our water cooler. It is a place where we can let our hair down, vent, discuss, complain about other sites. The only real rules in this thread is to keep things reasonable personable and/or professional. Maybe I crossed the line by complaining about it (although I know it isn't the first time in here). It really all started because I went there hoping to be helpful. I guess I just have to deal with the difference in culture between the two.
Everyone can certainly call SO poop. Everyone can call posts critiquing that attitude "personal attacks." However, nobody can call "the thread" a private thread until Steve makes it that way, because occasionally someone contrary might wander in.
I had sort of wondered about that, with some of the ways you guys talk about posters, maybe making the thread private isn't that bad an idea. I guess that I'm new enough that I don't necessarily need to be in here.
First of all, no one here has called The Thread a private thread. Yes, we have complained about some posters here, but it is us just venting. Would you prefer we actually go off on them? Sometimes when we vent other may agree or they may even come to the OPs defense saying they just may be having a bad day.
If you took the time to read every post in this thread you'd find it is much more than a rant fest as you seem to be portraying here. It is a Water Cooler, a place where we can come and talk about just about anything. And new people are just as welcome as the old-timers.
July 28, 2014 at 11:54 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I had sort of wondered about that, with some of the ways you guys talk about posters, maybe making the thread private isn't that bad an idea. I guess that I'm new enough that I don't necessarily need to be in here.
Well, if it were private, I never would have been allowed in. :crying:
But seriously, I've never seen anyone show up in The Thread who wasn't welcomed. Coming here to complain about those who are asking for help is a way to let off steam so those who answer the calls for help can keep doing so politely and professionally. If someone were to be offended by reading The Thread, I expect it's because they were guilty of one or more of the causes for complaint.
Edited to add: "What Lynn said. The Thread is much more than just a place to vent."
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July 28, 2014 at 11:59 am
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I had sort of wondered about that, with some of the ways you guys talk about posters, maybe making the thread private isn't that bad an idea. I guess that I'm new enough that I don't necessarily need to be in here.
Well, if it were private, I never would have been allowed in. :crying:
But seriously, I've never seen anyone show up in The Thread who wasn't welcomed. Coming here to complain about those who are asking for help is a way to let off steam so those who answer the calls for help can keep doing so politely and professionally. If someone were to be offended by reading The Thread, I expect it's because they were guilty of one or more of the causes for complaint.
I think its fine to talk about questions in general getting worse, but I've seen some discussions about particular posters that I hoped stayed unnoticed. Obviously I don't have to be in here reading them.
July 28, 2014 at 12:01 pm
The Dixie Flatline (7/28/2014)
Could I get a show of hands of how many people really hate starting a statement with a semicolon? (;WITH) and if so, why?
*Raises hand*
.It's a statement terminator (same as ; is in C#, C++) .It ends statements ,it doesn't begin them
.Using the ; at the start of the statement doesn't teach people what it is .It teaches them to blindly copy what others do
.Just the other week I saw a discussion on THROW; .A comment was made that the statement after THROW needs to start with a ; or there needs to be a GO .When asked why, the person said they didn't know ,they'd seen it that way ,it works that way and doesn't without .That's not what people should be learning
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 28, 2014 at 12:04 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/28/2014)
You know, laying on your back outside the DFAC watching the red glow of the C-RAM firing up into the night sky to take out incoming rockets is actually a rather pretty sight. Too bad I had to fall while trying to duck and run at the same time when the sirens went off.
"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like [small cough] tears... in... rain."
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