November 22, 2013 at 12:48 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (11/22/2013)
Lynn Pettis (11/22/2013)
Well, doing the job search thing is tedious. Thinking about applying for this position but pretty sure I only meet half the requirements. I think this company is either looking for Superman or actually needs at least two people to fulfill the requirements:About The Position
We are currently seeking a dynamic Database Programmer Analyst III to join our team at our office in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The Database Programmer Analyst III will provide technical leadership in the advancement of application and reporting systems at ValueOptions, Colorado.
Position Responsibilities
Will adhere to solid SDLC principles and practices for software delivery and support.
Subscribe to a methodology that includes, but is not limited to, requirements gathering, analysis and design, coding and testing, documentation, implementation and support.
Assess, prioritize and delegate development tasks, activities and deliverables.
Must be a mentor to other staff members and be a strong customer advocate.
Will see the big picture, and develop implementation plans accordingly.
Education
Bachelor's degree in computer science.
Relevant Work Experience
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2. Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including associated IDE's and development tools; Perl, ColdFusion, Java, C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script. XML experience is a plus, but not necessary. 10-12 years of software development leading to a senior software developer position.
Knowledge, Skills & Abilities
Application reengineering to include database upgrades and conversion.
Application and database troubleshooting
Developed and supported n-tier architectures
EDI and health Care a plus, especially knowledge of ANSI X12 v5010 standards (837s, 834s, 820s, 999s, 277s, etc.)
Organize and prioritize tasks and deliverables
Adaptable to new technologies and IT practices
The company isn't sure what it is looking for and threw in all the tech words they've heard. Why in the world would you be looking for someone that knows Perl, ColdFusion, Java, VB and ASP? They're trying to throw a wide net because they know they need some things done, but haven't narrowed down what.
Exactly, Stefan. IMO you cannot get both ColdFusion and C++ because those are two entirely different mindsets. Putting them together into the same laundry list shows that they do not have a clear idea what they want.
Which means, Lynn, that you can sell them what you have.
November 22, 2013 at 4:06 pm
I'm, very thankfully, not currently in a postition like Lynn where I need to find a job because I wouldn't even consider working for a company like that. So far as the job description they provided goes, it shows me that they've put virtually no thought into what the high profile postition of Database Programmer Analyst III actually is. How much thought will they put into anything else?
That job description is just as bad as any over-inflated resume that I've seen.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
November 22, 2013 at 4:35 pm
Jeff Moden (11/22/2013)
I'm, very thankfully, not currently in a postition like Lynn where I need to find a job because I wouldn't even consider working for a company like that. So far as the job description they provided goes, it shows me that they've put virtually no thought into what the high profile postition of Database Programmer Analyst III actually is. How much thought will they put into anything else?That job description is just as bad as any over-inflated resume that I've seen.
Jeff, your succinct summary forced me to notice that the job description 'Programmer Analyst' goes all the way back to IBM in the late 60s, and it was a fail. Back then you could either be an analyst, trained to ask 'what are the relations or influences I have to deal with?', or a programmer, trained to ask 'what do I have to do in the next instruction?'.
Of course, it led IBM to hire people with split personality disorder, or whatever it is called today, and together with their fixation on the 'man month' and 'produced lines of code' got them where they are now. They still own the two biggest software disasters of all time, OS/2 ($1.1B write-off in 2001 dollars) and OfficeVision (amount undisclosed, but quite sizeable).
It got a bit better with the invention of functional languages; however, based on my experience, any software jock has to make a decision whether to pursue the C++ 'pure' programmer path, or the UX path (as in ColdFusion), or the analyst path (as in MDX and data mining tools, to bring it home).
There is just so much to learn.
November 22, 2013 at 6:17 pm
I never had the "pleasure" of working with either of those IBM products, but I've been forced to work with other ones. If they're any judge, it's a wonder the company is still in business.
November 22, 2013 at 7:23 pm
OS\2 - brings back some memories. Some good, some not so good.
Seem to recall some guys at work hosting a Doom Server.
Think Bill Gates also had a part in it.
November 22, 2013 at 7:24 pm
Jeff Moden (11/22/2013)
I'm, very thankfully, not currently in a postition like Lynn where I need to find a job because I wouldn't even consider working for a company like that. So far as the job description they provided goes, it shows me that they've put virtually no thought into what the high profile postition of Database Programmer Analyst III actually is. How much thought will they put into anything else?That job description is just as bad as any over-inflated resume that I've seen.
As a consultant I love job descriptions like this. It tends to mean they need a lot of work done and if they hire me I'll have a lot of flexibility. I can find what they need done and guide them to the best ways of doing it. I can pick the technologies they should be switching to and help them make the switch to a more coherent system.
Not always, but frequently.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm
Ed Wagner (11/22/2013)
I never had the "pleasure" of working with either of those IBM products, but I've been forced to work with other ones. If they're any judge, it's a wonder the company is still in business.
They're still in business because they have a core business that is a cash cow (mainframes) and were able to waste billions on other things, like AT&T back in the day.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 22, 2013 at 7:26 pm
Greg Edwards-268690 (11/22/2013)
OS\2 - brings back some memories. Some good, some not so good.Seem to recall some guys at work hosting a Doom Server.
Think Bill Gates also had a part in it.
Most of what I remember using OS/2 for (actually OS/2 Warp) at the one company I worked at that had it was to run Windows 3.1.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 22, 2013 at 8:04 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (11/22/2013)
Jeff Moden (11/22/2013)
I'm, very thankfully, not currently in a postition like Lynn where I need to find a job because I wouldn't even consider working for a company like that. So far as the job description they provided goes, it shows me that they've put virtually no thought into what the high profile postition of Database Programmer Analyst III actually is. How much thought will they put into anything else?That job description is just as bad as any over-inflated resume that I've seen.
As a consultant I love job descriptions like this. It tends to mean they need a lot of work done and if they hire me I'll have a lot of flexibility. I can find what they need done and guide them to the best ways of doing it. I can pick the technologies they should be switching to and help them make the switch to a more coherent system.
Not always, but frequently.
As Gran'pa used to say, "If you want to catch fish, you have to go where there's fish". 😀 I agree with you. For a consultant, such job descriptions are perfect for the very reasons that you mention.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
November 22, 2013 at 8:08 pm
Revenant (11/22/2013)
Jeff Moden (11/22/2013)
I'm, very thankfully, not currently in a postition like Lynn where I need to find a job because I wouldn't even consider working for a company like that. So far as the job description they provided goes, it shows me that they've put virtually no thought into what the high profile postition of Database Programmer Analyst III actually is. How much thought will they put into anything else?That job description is just as bad as any over-inflated resume that I've seen.
Jeff, your succinct summary forced me to notice that the job description 'Programmer Analyst' goes all the way back to IBM in the late 60s, and it was a fail. Back then you could either be an analyst, trained to ask 'what are the relations or influences I have to deal with?', or a programmer, trained to ask 'what do I have to do in the next instruction?'.
Of course, it led IBM to hire people with split personality disorder, or whatever it is called today, and together with their fixation on the 'man month' and 'produced lines of code' got them where they are now. They still own the two biggest software disasters of all time, OS/2 ($1.1B write-off in 2001 dollars) and OfficeVision (amount undisclosed, but quite sizeable).
It got a bit better with the invention of functional languages; however, based on my experience, any software jock has to make a decision whether to pursue the C++ 'pure' programmer path, or the UX path (as in ColdFusion), or the analyst path (as in MDX and data mining tools, to bring it home).
There is just so much to learn.
Spot on and thanks for the history lesson. I knew Lotus (Lotus 1-2-3 and Symphony... remember?) was dead as soon as I heard that IBM had bought it way back when. Lotus actually had "Pivots" (remember "Allways"?) long before Excel and, yet, MS has somehow copyrighted the word.
And considering how much change there is, I find myself having to unlearn more than I learn. 😀
Getting back on the subject, I agree with Lynn. They want a "Superman" although there's no doubt in my mind that Lynn can handle the database and management requirements.
There might be some folks that can do all of what they've listed but I'd seriously question what their skill level is across the board. And then to use the word "DATABASE" in the title followed by a requirement of nearly a dozen years across such a bill of front-end tools raises all sorts of red flags for me.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
November 23, 2013 at 2:05 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/22/2013)
Lynn Pettis (11/22/2013)
Well, doing the job search thing is tedious. Thinking about applying for this position but pretty sure I only meet half the requirements. I think this company is either looking for Superman or actually needs at least two people to fulfill the requirements:About The Position
We are currently seeking a dynamic Database Programmer Analyst III to join our team at our office in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The Database Programmer Analyst III will provide technical leadership in the advancement of application and reporting systems at ValueOptions, Colorado.
Position Responsibilities
1. Will adhere to solid SDLC principles and practices for software delivery and support.
2. Subscribe to a methodology that includes, but is not limited to, requirements gathering, analysis and design, coding and testing, documentation, implementation and support.
3. Assess, prioritize and delegate development tasks, activities and deliverables.
4. Must be a mentor to other staff members and be a strong customer advocate.
5. Will see the big picture, and develop implementation plans accordingly.
Education
...
Half? I see there as being (edited above) 5 responsibilities, none of which is onerous.
1. Follow their process. What's complex about that?
2. This really means that you talk to people, come up with a design, code and test it, document it, deliver it, fix bugs, answer questions. Sounds complex, but this is what writing code is.
3. manage your own schedule. Again, not a big deal.
4. Help others.
5. Think.
Lynn, if you think you only meet half of these, you are severely overthinking your job search. This is basic stuff.
The fact that a description is long or includes lots of items doesn't necessarily mean they want all of them (then mention 2 of the languages, some things a plus), or that it's a very busy, complex job. It could be, but really this is a general list of all things you might be asked to do. Or a list of many things you might do once a year.
When I said half I was looking at just these two lines:
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including associated IDE's and development tools; Perl, ColdFusion, Java, C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script.
I think everyone can guess which half I feel qualified to do.
November 23, 2013 at 6:32 am
Lynn Pettis (11/23/2013)
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including associated IDE's and development tools; Perl, ColdFusion, Java, C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script.
I think everyone can guess which half I feel qualified to do.
[/quote]
ODBC is a web technology?
C++ not C#?
VB not .Net?
ASP not ASPX?
Not updated, or maybe they truly are stuck in the past.
I agree with the lack of thought on being focused and understanding what they really need.
I've also seen this happen when a technical manager has a job description and HR decides to add to it.
Most shops would support 1, maybe 2 main DB technologies, at least enough to list as a requirement. The DB servers - it might just be a plus to have some exposure to. And if these are tied directly to a specific application, sometimes it is better to have an application SME that knows the DB side just for that.
November 23, 2013 at 10:20 am
Lynn Pettis (11/23/2013)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/22/2013)
Lynn Pettis (11/22/2013)
Well, doing the job search thing is tedious. Thinking about applying for this position but pretty sure I only meet half the requirements. I think this company is either looking for Superman or actually needs at least two people to fulfill the requirements:About The Position
We are currently seeking a dynamic Database Programmer Analyst III to join our team at our office in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The Database Programmer Analyst III will provide technical leadership in the advancement of application and reporting systems at ValueOptions, Colorado.
Position Responsibilities
1. Will adhere to solid SDLC principles and practices for software delivery and support.
2. Subscribe to a methodology that includes, but is not limited to, requirements gathering, analysis and design, coding and testing, documentation, implementation and support.
3. Assess, prioritize and delegate development tasks, activities and deliverables.
4. Must be a mentor to other staff members and be a strong customer advocate.
5. Will see the big picture, and develop implementation plans accordingly.
Education
...
Half? I see there as being (edited above) 5 responsibilities, none of which is onerous.
1. Follow their process. What's complex about that?
2. This really means that you talk to people, come up with a design, code and test it, document it, deliver it, fix bugs, answer questions. Sounds complex, but this is what writing code is.
3. manage your own schedule. Again, not a big deal.
4. Help others.
5. Think.
Lynn, if you think you only meet half of these, you are severely overthinking your job search. This is basic stuff.
The fact that a description is long or includes lots of items doesn't necessarily mean they want all of them (then mention 2 of the languages, some things a plus), or that it's a very busy, complex job. It could be, but really this is a general list of all things you might be asked to do. Or a list of many things you might do once a year.
When I said half I was looking at just these two lines:
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including associated IDE's and development tools; Perl, ColdFusion, Java, C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script.
I think everyone can guess which half I feel qualified to do.
Is it
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including
Or more like
of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 23, 2013 at 10:36 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/23/2013)
Lynn Pettis (11/23/2013)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/22/2013)
Lynn Pettis (11/22/2013)
Well, doing the job search thing is tedious. Thinking about applying for this position but pretty sure I only meet half the requirements. I think this company is either looking for Superman or actually needs at least two people to fulfill the requirements:About The Position
We are currently seeking a dynamic Database Programmer Analyst III to join our team at our office in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The Database Programmer Analyst III will provide technical leadership in the advancement of application and reporting systems at ValueOptions, Colorado.
Position Responsibilities
1. Will adhere to solid SDLC principles and practices for software delivery and support.
2. Subscribe to a methodology that includes, but is not limited to, requirements gathering, analysis and design, coding and testing, documentation, implementation and support.
3. Assess, prioritize and delegate development tasks, activities and deliverables.
4. Must be a mentor to other staff members and be a strong customer advocate.
5. Will see the big picture, and develop implementation plans accordingly.
Education
...
Half? I see there as being (edited above) 5 responsibilities, none of which is onerous.
1. Follow their process. What's complex about that?
2. This really means that you talk to people, come up with a design, code and test it, document it, deliver it, fix bugs, answer questions. Sounds complex, but this is what writing code is.
3. manage your own schedule. Again, not a big deal.
4. Help others.
5. Think.
Lynn, if you think you only meet half of these, you are severely overthinking your job search. This is basic stuff.
The fact that a description is long or includes lots of items doesn't necessarily mean they want all of them (then mention 2 of the languages, some things a plus), or that it's a very busy, complex job. It could be, but really this is a general list of all things you might be asked to do. Or a list of many things you might do once a year.
When I said half I was looking at just these two lines:
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including associated IDE's and development tools; Perl, ColdFusion, Java, C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script.
I think everyone can guess which half I feel qualified to do.
Is it
Eight to ten years database programming experience using two or more of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
Ten years using two or more of the following programming languages, including
Or more like
of the following databases; MS SQL Server, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2.
C++, Visual basic, ASP. Eight+ years in the following web technologies; ColdFusion, ASP, Apache, IIS, html, CGI, TCP/IP, ODBC, Java Script.
The first as I have worked with both MS SQL Server and Oracle.
November 23, 2013 at 10:56 am
Lynn, I'd say give it a try and talk to them. Figure out what they're looking for and go from there.
At least you'll know if they're really looking for Superman or if they just did throw in all the Tech words they know of to get as much candidates as possible (sometimes leading to the exact opposite though...).
Specificaly ask where the major work ist, DB or App and what database Systems they're running (I truly hope for that company they don't have all that stuff running...)
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