October 28, 2013 at 10:14 am
OCTom (10/28/2013)
Revenant (10/25/2013)
Luis Cazares (10/25/2013)
I'm losing faith in humanity here as I've been interviewing some candidates for BI developers at my job. The last one claiming to have 8 years of experience as .NET developer (using SQL Server) and knowing 75% of SQL Server couldn't make a simple query on his head (SELECT * FROM Product WHERE ProductName != 'Milk') saying he would use DISTINCT to filter values from a query and he used just jobs to import data from a flat file (no bcp, bulk insert or SSIS).I wonder what's going on in the world if people claim all that experience without knowing the simple basics.
I have been there before. I developed a simple trick: I ask the candidate how they rate their skills on a scale of 1 to 10. If the candidate has less than 12 years on SQL Server and rates himself - much less frequently herself - 8 or higher, the interview effectively ends right there.
That's a no-win for the candidate. I was asked to rate myself once. I rated myself a 9 on the technology. The interviewer said that's impossible; no one can be that high. The next interview I was asked to rate myself on the same technology I said 6. The interviewer said it's too low; that I have a low opinion of myself. So, now, when I'm asked to rate myself, I relate those two stories and ask what number they're looking for.
What is the right number? I have settled on 7 to 8. Most interviewers want to hear that.
Tom
I generally ask a few questions first. I ask him how the scale is weighted. They usually give me a funny look but when I explain that I want to know if my rating is based on being compared to other people that I know or if it is being compared to the cumulative knowledge of sql at large. This has usually resulted in some interesting responses. I then generally that since it is a base 10 response I like to think of it as a percentage. Compared to the cumulative sql knowledge I would say I am somewhere around a 6 (60% of what I need to know about most things I have readily at my fingertips with no research required), if compared to other people then I would go a bit higher. I even once had an interviewer say that he had never considered the question in the light that I suggested. He told me to forget it because the question is too vague and arbitrary. 😀
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October 28, 2013 at 10:32 am
Rating someone on an average for all SQL Server is not a great idea. I could rate myself high on developing T-SQL, but not on DBA or ETL stuff. It's more about being aware on what you know and what you don't but want to learn about.
Another guy came for an interview saying he worked on performance improvement but he removed cursors by changing them with while loops and couldn't answer why temp tables are better than table variables for performance.
Instead of using raw numbers, I prefer to go further on which are the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
October 28, 2013 at 10:44 am
Luis Cazares (10/28/2013)
Rating someone on an average for all SQL Server is not a great idea. I could rate myself high on developing T-SQL, but not on DBA or ETL stuff. It's more about being aware on what you know and what you don't but want to learn about.Another guy came for an interview saying he worked on performance improvement but he removed cursors by changing them with while loops and couldn't answer why temp tables are better than table variables for performance.
Instead of using raw numbers, I prefer to go further on which are the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
Agreed!!! My point of putting it back on the interviewer is to hopefully shed some light on how ridiculous and ambiguous the question is.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
October 28, 2013 at 10:56 am
Sean Lange (10/28/2013)
Luis Cazares (10/28/2013)
Rating someone on an average for all SQL Server is not a great idea. I could rate myself high on developing T-SQL, but not on DBA or ETL stuff. It's more about being aware on what you know and what you don't but want to learn about.Another guy came for an interview saying he worked on performance improvement but he removed cursors by changing them with while loops and couldn't answer why temp tables are better than table variables for performance.
Instead of using raw numbers, I prefer to go further on which are the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
Agreed!!! My point of putting it back on the interviewer is to hopefully shed some light on how ridiculous and ambiguous the question is.
The question sounds like it was created by HR people to rank candidates, not by database people who know there are many different areas of expertise. For example, I'm lucky I can spell SSAS, but don't ask me to go any further than that. 😀
October 28, 2013 at 11:13 am
Ed Wagner (10/28/2013)
Sean Lange (10/28/2013)
Luis Cazares (10/28/2013)
Rating someone on an average for all SQL Server is not a great idea. I could rate myself high on developing T-SQL, but not on DBA or ETL stuff. It's more about being aware on what you know and what you don't but want to learn about.Another guy came for an interview saying he worked on performance improvement but he removed cursors by changing them with while loops and couldn't answer why temp tables are better than table variables for performance.
Instead of using raw numbers, I prefer to go further on which are the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
Agreed!!! My point of putting it back on the interviewer is to hopefully shed some light on how ridiculous and ambiguous the question is.
The question sounds like it was created by HR people to rank candidates, not by database people who know there are many different areas of expertise. For example, I'm lucky I can spell SSAS, but don't ask me to go any further than that. 😀
You're really lucky, I might get confused when spelling SSIS and SSAS.:hehe:
October 28, 2013 at 11:19 am
Sean Lange (10/28/2013)
Luis Cazares (10/28/2013)
Rating someone on an average for all SQL Server is not a great idea. I could rate myself high on developing T-SQL, but not on DBA or ETL stuff. It's more about being aware on what you know and what you don't but want to learn about.Another guy came for an interview saying he worked on performance improvement but he removed cursors by changing them with while loops and couldn't answer why temp tables are better than table variables for performance.
Instead of using raw numbers, I prefer to go further on which are the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
Agreed!!! My point of putting it back on the interviewer is to hopefully shed some light on how ridiculous and ambiguous the question is.
Yeah, I never just answer with the number, I always talk more about why I said that number and elaborate on what areas I'm stronger in.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
October 28, 2013 at 11:21 am
Ed Wagner (10/28/2013)
For example, I'm lucky I can spell SSAS, but don't ask me to go any further than that. 😀
I'm not even sure I could do that
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 28, 2013 at 11:42 am
I'll jump in on the rating yourself on a scale of 1-10 discussion. I love the idea of asking what the scale is for the rating. Overall I'd rate myself somewhat above average 6-6.5 with a 0 for SSAS. Probably a bit higher for T-SQL (7-7.5) and bit lower for SSRS and SISS (5-5.5). 10 years ago I probably would have rated myself an 8, but since 2007 when I became involved with the SQL Community I realized how little I actually know.
My biggest issue is not having had an opportunity to implement all the different things I've learned, especially around database design, DR solutions, and tuning. I've spent quite a bit time reading and "playing" in those areas, but never really been in the position to implement what I've learned.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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October 28, 2013 at 11:46 am
If asked to rate myself on SQL I would want to know what on and what the scoring system is. If it were on ability to write working T-SQL quickly, one rating; data engine as a whole, anther rating; SQL Server and all it's widgets and ruffles, yet another; SQL Server's BI toools as a whole, yet another. What those various numbers would be depends of course on what the the rating is supposed to mean; is it incomparison with senior management? Is it in comparison with top level database developers? Is it in comparison with DB administrators? Is it in comparison with the whole population of people who work with SQL Server (DBAs, SQL Developers, Report Developers, Schema Designers/Data Designers, System Architects, ... ... ...and so on. Is the meaning of N "between the 10(N-1)th and 10Nth percentile? Or is it a score between 10N-5 and 10N+5 on values assigned to the population so as to give a normal distribution with mean 50 and SD 10 (or some other numbers)? Or is it how much I could score in a theory exam with books online available or with books online not available or with reasonable time or running in panic mode with large penalties for not finishing all questions? Or in a practical exam, with an equally wide range of exam conditions? Or perhaps is it how I think my (current and/or former) bosses would rate me, or my colleagues, or my subordinates? Is it just SQL Server or does Oracle count? Ingres? Postgres? The "select only" SQL variant that IDMSX (totally non-releations) acquired? Sybase? Depending on the answers to those questions my self-rating would be somewhere between 2 to 3 (SQL Server, all the frills, furbelows, bells, and whistles, dba and devlopment with no management responsibilities) and 9 to 10 (SQL Server, no non-db engine stuff, what previous bosses/subordinates/colleagues would rate me). But how would I rate myself on what I would think of as a reasonable rating system? Somewhere in the top third, I guess, or maybe higher if ability to learn rapidly counts for something. But why should anyone else think that my idea of a reasonable rating system meant anything useful?
I'm sure I wouldn't throw all of that at an interviewer; I doubt if I would do as Sean did and throw a part of it at the interviewer; I might just tell him that it was a meaningless question because it didn't say what the rate meant; or I might guess at what the answers to the questions about what it meant and try to give a straight answer - or be arkward and tell him he couldn't expect applications from anyone in the top X% to apply given the silly pay he was offering (I have been known thrown away jobs at interviews when irritated by what I think are stupid interview questions; asking for a rating on MS SQL is pretty stupid). I don't know, no interviewer has ever asked me to rate myself on SQL or database skills. The nearest thing that ever happened was that I was asked to rate myself on C++, and told the interviewer that I was probably pretty awful at it because it was one of the most abysmally awful pieces of language design it had ever been my misfortune to encounter; the short term result was a long discussion on the merits or demerits of C++ and the medium term result was that I was offered the job. But I knew the interviewer was a very competent technical person and an expert on C++ so I could get away with an honest answer; if he'd been an HR animal or some other person who would have no clue about C++ I would probably have just said something like "somewhere in the 7 to 9 range, depending on how you define it".
Tom
October 28, 2013 at 12:02 pm
L' Eomot Inversé (10/28/2013)
If asked to rate myself on SQL I would want to know what on and what the scoring system is. If it were on ability to write working T-SQL quickly, one rating; data engine as a whole, anther rating; SQL Server and all it's widgets and ruffles, yet another; SQL Server's BI toools as a whole, yet another. What those various numbers would be depends of course on what the the rating is supposed to mean; is it incomparison with senior management? Is it in comparison with top level database developers? Is it in comparison with DB administrators? Is it in comparison with the whole population of people who work with SQL Server (DBAs, SQL Developers, Report Developers, Schema Designers/Data Designers, System Architects, ... ... ...and so on. Is the meaning of N "between the 10(N-1)th and 10Nth percentile? Or is it a score between 10N-5 and 10N+5 on values assigned to the population so as to give a normal distribution with mean 50 and SD 10 (or some other numbers)? Or is it how much I could score in a theory exam with books online available or with books online not available or with reasonable time or running in panic mode with large penalties for not finishing all questions? Or in a practical exam, with an equally wide range of exam conditions? Or perhaps is it how I think my (current and/or former) bosses would rate me, or my colleagues, or my subordinates? Is it just SQL Server or does Oracle count? Ingres? Postgres? The "select only" SQL variant that IDMSX (totally non-releations) acquired? Sybase? Depending on the answers to those questions my self-rating would be somewhere between 2 to 3 (SQL Server, all the frills, furbelows, bells, and whistles, dba and devlopment with no management responsibilities) and 9 to 10 (SQL Server, no non-db engine stuff, what previous bosses/subordinates/colleagues would rate me). But how would I rate myself on what I would think of as a reasonable rating system? Somewhere in the top third, I guess, or maybe higher if ability to learn rapidly counts for something. But why should anyone else think that my idea of a reasonable rating system meant anything useful?I'm sure I wouldn't throw all of that at an interviewer; I doubt if I would do as Sean did and throw a part of it at the interviewer; I might just tell him that it was a meaningless question because it didn't say what the rate meant; or I might guess at what the answers to the questions about what it meant and try to give a straight answer - or be arkward and tell him he couldn't expect applications from anyone in the top X% to apply given the silly pay he was offering (I have been known thrown away jobs at interviews when irritated by what I think are stupid interview questions; asking for a rating on MS SQL is pretty stupid). I don't know, no interviewer has ever asked me to rate myself on SQL or database skills. The nearest thing that ever happened was that I was asked to rate myself on C++, and told the interviewer that I was probably pretty awful at it because it was one of the most abysmally awful pieces of language design it had ever been my misfortune to encounter; the short term result was a long discussion on the merits or demerits of C++ and the medium term result was that I was offered the job. But I knew the interviewer was a very competent technical person and an expert on C++ so I could get away with an honest answer; if he'd been an HR animal or some other person who would have no clue about C++ I would probably have just said something like "somewhere in the 7 to 9 range, depending on how you define it".
What you're really being asked to rate when the question of "One a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate yourself at SQL Server" is "Based on the extremely superficial description of the job I've just given you, how well could you handle it." But the question is phrased in such a way that if you answer "10" then you're not taking it seriously or have an inflated idea of your own abilities. If you rate yourself lower than a 7, you're saying you don't want the job. They're looking for an answer between 7 and 9 (if that's the sole ranking question) and a brief explanation of why.
Part of the reason for the question is the questioner doesn't know enough about the product to rate you themselves from a discussion, part is the love of ranking things and part (if it is being done well) is to get you to open up about what you do and what you like without having to actually direct the question.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
October 28, 2013 at 12:18 pm
Note to self: Just say 8, if they insist on a number.
Since I started attending PASS, I've actually started evaluating myself based on the session rating system. In areas where I don't get much from attending 400 level sessions I feel fairly competent. In areas like SSIS, where I actually learn a lot from 300-level sessions, I rank just a step above novice.
Sitting on the other side of the desk, you could learn a lot from having candidates perform simple exercises with hands on the keyboard, asking them whose blogs they read and why, or finding out where they go to get answers to questions. (HyderabadTechies?)
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October 28, 2013 at 2:13 pm
Luis Cazares (10/28/2013)
Ed Wagner (10/28/2013)
Sean Lange (10/28/2013)
Luis Cazares (10/28/2013)
Rating someone on an average for all SQL Server is not a great idea. I could rate myself high on developing T-SQL, but not on DBA or ETL stuff. It's more about being aware on what you know and what you don't but want to learn about.Another guy came for an interview saying he worked on performance improvement but he removed cursors by changing them with while loops and couldn't answer why temp tables are better than table variables for performance.
Instead of using raw numbers, I prefer to go further on which are the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
Agreed!!! My point of putting it back on the interviewer is to hopefully shed some light on how ridiculous and ambiguous the question is.
The question sounds like it was created by HR people to rank candidates, not by database people who know there are many different areas of expertise. For example, I'm lucky I can spell SSAS, but don't ask me to go any further than that. 😀
You're really lucky, I might get confused when spelling SSIS and SSAS.:hehe:
For non-native English speakers, the pronunciation of both acronyms is really close together.
Really confusing sometimes.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
October 28, 2013 at 2:55 pm
GilaMonster (10/28/2013)
Apparently the current top database guy at the company I'm joining is ecstatic about my joining them. From what I heard from one of the other devs, he has a whole bunch of questions he's planning to drop on my desk first day.It's a good thing, if he resented someone coming in above him, could make things really unpleasant.
That is indeed a good thing. Let's all hope that this attitude stays.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
October 29, 2013 at 3:57 am
wolfkillj (10/28/2013)
rodjkidd (10/28/2013)
I'm with Lynn.I know what I know and I know people (Paul Randal, Paul White, Jeff and Gail etc) who know a heck of a lot more than me!
I've been asked how good I am at SSIS - my answer has been I've used to solve problems, and I've known more than the rest of the team, but I know a lot of people who are experts with it.
I the like the idea that the more you know and the more other people you know you end up rating yourself lower because you peer group has got bigger and more knowledgeable so you adjust your personal rating.
We just filled a perm role in our team, apparently the guy came over as expert in the interviews. I ended up working opposite him. Nice guy seemed to know stuff but also lacked a lot of knowledge. He quit one month in, last Friday, he had decided he was out of his depth. :-O The only thing I can think was last two roles he was top of the pile and by default "The expert", moves to a job where he's no longer at the top and rather than use it to his advantage (learning + experience) has walked. That's the third person the position has been offered to, 2 didn't even make to first day! I would say does anyone want a perm role, but there is major reorganisation going on, and I'm not sure the permanent roles are very safe at the moment. Hopefully we'll know Jan / Feb next year, so I doubt they will re-advertise this side of Christmas.
Rodders...
Maybe your guy was one of those "expert beginners" we've heard about.
I like that.
My opinion is, he didn't do it on purpose, but was both really keen to impress, I did here him say "he'd learn Oracle on the job"! and had been "the one eyed man in the land of blind" at his previous two roles, so it was a big shock to the system, and had just quit!
But maybe I always look for the good in people 🙂
Rodders...
October 29, 2013 at 4:00 am
Arh, Gail has a fan boy! 😉
Use this power wisely Gail! 🙂
Oh and the weekend passed me by, I'll start going through my PASS summit photos tonight and see what I have.
Rodders...
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