April 18, 2013 at 6:24 am
From the other side of the fence - I've asked questions here and got ripped a new one because I didn't provide actual examples - sometimes it's hard to figure out how to provide a meaningful example. If I have a codestream that goes on and on, but there's one part that is failing, I think to myself, "this may be a simple thing I just don't know, but someone with more experience may have a direction for me to look if I just provide the error and a description of what I'm trying to do." It does happen - sometimes I know what a problem is just from the error message, so I can help someone else without making them feel like they've committed a mortal sin. Furthermore, I always Google first, go to BOL, etc. Sometimes I STILL can't find an answer I can understand. Finally, I've asked "best practices" and "what's your opinion" questions and gotten blasted for not providing specifics. It's not a question on a specific problem - it's me looking to see what the consensus is for best practices because I'm always on a mission to learn, and I know many people here are experts. It doesn't happen every time - I've certainly gotten help here, too, for which I am grateful - but it happens frequently enough (and interestingly enough, that seems to come in waves, too) to make me always think twice before I ask a question. Is it a bad thing to try and learn something from another human after you've read one incomprehensible blog posting and book after another and you still don't feel you have a firm grasp of something? If you're the lone tech geek somewhere, you're gonna ask "stupid" questions, so a little patience is a virtue. And yes, I've seen the "I can't be bothered to Google/research it" questions, but that's not the case with EVERY "stupid" question.
Donna
April 18, 2013 at 6:37 am
Donna, welcome to the water cooler!
I understand your frustration. We try not to be as bad as other help forums, but sometimes things happen and we all apologize. [edited because she said "here" and I missed that.]
This thread has long degenerated into a catch-all "talk about anything" kind of thread, so don't be surprised to find responses here that have nothing to do with the original topic.
And again, welcome to the water cooler. How's your day going?
April 18, 2013 at 7:09 am
dbursey (4/18/2013)
From the other side of the fence - I've asked questions here and got ripped a new one because I didn't provide actual examples - sometimes it's hard to figure out how to provide a meaningful example. If I have a codestream that goes on and on, but there's one part that is failing, I think to myself, "this may be a simple thing I just don't know, but someone with more experience may have a direction for me to look if I just provide the error and a description of what I'm trying to do." It does happen - sometimes I know what a problem is just from the error message, so I can help someone else without making them feel like they've committed a mortal sin. Furthermore, I always Google first, go to BOL, etc. Sometimes I STILL can't find an answer I can understand. Finally, I've asked "best practices" and "what's your opinion" questions and gotten blasted for not providing specifics. It's not a question on a specific problem - it's me looking to see what the consensus is for best practices because I'm always on a mission to learn, and I know many people here are experts. It doesn't happen every time - I've certainly gotten help here, too, for which I am grateful - but it happens frequently enough (and interestingly enough, that seems to come in waves, too) to make me always think twice before I ask a question. Is it a bad thing to try and learn something from another human after you've read one incomprehensible blog posting and book after another and you still don't feel you have a firm grasp of something? If you're the lone tech geek somewhere, you're gonna ask "stupid" questions, so a little patience is a virtue. And yes, I've seen the "I can't be bothered to Google/research it" questions, but that's not the case with EVERY "stupid" question.Donna
I can certainly identify with what you're saying! However, providing concrete examples is a good skill for honing in on solutions, and while its certainly not feasable in all cases, providing a test case is a very desirable strategy in getting results to problems, ie., is the error repeatable, can we identify the situation in which the error occurs, whats the difference between a working system and a seemingly identical system that is failing, etc...
There surely are cases that don't fit this mold however, like general strategy questions, discussion on error messages that you can't fit all the specifics in on a web post, etc...
Also, keep in mind, many of the "highly rated" posters actually get points for posting rote replies like "see this post for instructions on how to submit your question," so the incentive system here is particularily slanted toward providing "copy paste" answers even without studying the question the answer is posted to in any reasonable detail. Just my 2 cents!
April 18, 2013 at 7:18 am
dbursey (4/18/2013)
From the other side of the fence - I've asked questions here and got ripped a new one because I didn't provide actual examples - sometimes it's hard to figure out how to provide a meaningful example. ....Donna
Yes, providing an example can be hard. And just as hard (possibly harder) is trying to 'guess' at solutions.
Sometimes one might be better off just dropping a note that they'd be happy to take a better look at the problem rather than fan some embers.
But that is easy for me to say since I am semi retired and don't have the bad day at work to deal with.
Hang in there - I've seen some amazing help from many on this site.
Sorry for any bad first impressions you might have.
April 18, 2013 at 7:25 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (4/18/2013)
dbursey (4/18/2013)
From the other side of the fence - I've asked questions here and got ripped a new one because I didn't provide actual examples - sometimes it's hard to figure out how to provide a meaningful example. If I have a codestream that goes on and on, but there's one part that is failing, I think to myself, "this may be a simple thing I just don't know, but someone with more experience may have a direction for me to look if I just provide the error and a description of what I'm trying to do." It does happen - sometimes I know what a problem is just from the error message, so I can help someone else without making them feel like they've committed a mortal sin. Furthermore, I always Google first, go to BOL, etc. Sometimes I STILL can't find an answer I can understand. Finally, I've asked "best practices" and "what's your opinion" questions and gotten blasted for not providing specifics. It's not a question on a specific problem - it's me looking to see what the consensus is for best practices because I'm always on a mission to learn, and I know many people here are experts. It doesn't happen every time - I've certainly gotten help here, too, for which I am grateful - but it happens frequently enough (and interestingly enough, that seems to come in waves, too) to make me always think twice before I ask a question. Is it a bad thing to try and learn something from another human after you've read one incomprehensible blog posting and book after another and you still don't feel you have a firm grasp of something? If you're the lone tech geek somewhere, you're gonna ask "stupid" questions, so a little patience is a virtue. And yes, I've seen the "I can't be bothered to Google/research it" questions, but that's not the case with EVERY "stupid" question.Donna
I can certainly identify with what you're saying! However, providing concrete examples is a good skill for honing in on solutions, and while its certainly not feasable in all cases, providing a test case is a very desirable strategy in getting results to problems, ie., is the error repeatable, can we identify the situation in which the error occurs, whats the difference between a working system and a seemingly identical system that is failing, etc...
There surely are cases that don't fit this mold however, like general strategy questions, discussion on error messages that you can't fit all the specifics in on a web post, etc...
Also, keep in mind, many of the "highly rated" posters actually get points for posting rote replies like "see this post for instructions on how to submit your question," so the incentive system here is particularily slanted toward providing "copy paste" answers even without studying the question the answer is posted to in any reasonable detail. Just my 2 cents!
Most of us "highly rated" posters aren't here to be "highly rated", we want to help. I know for me seeing the problem helps with understanding and that's why I ask for DDL, sample data, and expected results if that is what is needed to help solve a problem. I'll ask for actual query plans for performance issues as well.
If you want to go down the path of getting points for posting, we all get points for posting here on the water cooler as well.
April 18, 2013 at 7:34 am
Lynn Pettis (4/18/2013)[hrIf you want to go down the path of getting points for posting, we all get points for posting here on the water cooler as well.
I kinow! I think Steve should seriously deduct a point for each post in this thread!
April 18, 2013 at 7:39 am
Forum points: A measure of how much time is spend not doing productive work.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 18, 2013 at 7:57 am
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Forum points: A measure of how much time is spend not doing productive work.
Hey! This is productive. (SET @PompousVoice = ON) I'm building my brand and borrowing solutions from fellow posters.
April 18, 2013 at 8:00 am
Brandie Tarvin (4/18/2013)
jasona.work (4/18/2013)
Of course, everyone will then expect the last step to show them how to create a GUI front-end, just because...Which is exactly what I can't do because I'm not that good at front end application coding. On the other hand, if there's someone here who wants to take on that task for the second phase of articles, I'd be willing to work with him/her on that kind of "here's how real life business works" kind of project.
I have an MS A^&*$S db that I designed for my music collection with GUI and reports. Keep meaning to move it over to SQL Server and a produce a nice .Net front end. But I hardly do an front end dev anymore.
Rodders...
April 18, 2013 at 8:04 am
Thanks Rod, Jo, Brandie and Grant
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 18, 2013 at 8:07 am
Brandie Tarvin (4/18/2013)
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Forum points: A measure of how much time is spend not doing productive work.Hey! This is productive. (SET @PompousVoice = ON) I'm building my brand and borrowing solutions from fellow posters.
Yeah, yeah. Keep telling yourself that. 😉
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 18, 2013 at 8:29 am
Got in this morning, plugged my laptop into the docking station and the SSD failed. Hooray technology?
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 18, 2013 at 8:32 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (4/18/2013)
Also, keep in mind, many of the "highly rated" posters actually get points for posting rote replies like "see this post for instructions on how to submit your question," so the incentive system here is particularily slanted toward providing "copy paste" answers even without studying the question the answer is posted to in any reasonable detail. Just my 2 cents!
If so many of the posters weren't so consistent about not providing enough details to answer a question I would have probably half as many points as I do...maybe less. There are dozens of posts every single day where somebody wants us to provide a detailed query and we don't have ddl or even all the business rules. The reason we ask for these things is because we don't like writing multiple answers for the same problem because not enough information was provided initially.
While it is true that often we could build the sample data from the disaster that was posted we are volunteers. If Red Gate decided they wanted to pay me for parsing messily posted data into something consumable I would be more willing to do it. Since they don't, I don't too often spend my time assembling that into something usable.
Instead of just viewing the issue and ignoring it I try to tell the OP what they can do to get the help they are seeking. How many threads do we see with 20 or 30 views and zero responses? Many people don't bother to take the time to help these people understand what they can do to help themselves. Then the people who do take that time get ridiculed as being points hoarders. I guess I chose not to be anonymous and ignore these people. Instead I try to help these people get pointed in the right direction.
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Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
April 18, 2013 at 8:51 am
SQLRNNR (4/17/2013)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/17/2013)
Congrats to both Jason and Wayne for their MCM achievements.Thanks Steve
+1
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 18, 2013 at 8:55 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/17/2013)
Congrats to both Jason and Wayne for their MCM achievements.
Thanks Steve
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
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