March 7, 2013 at 10:22 am
HowardW (3/7/2013)
Rugby Union is my sport, and the rulebook is a mess, extremely complicated and tweaked pretty much every season.It's refereed inconsistently, even at the international level and you'll see tactics change between games depending on what the ref's picking up or not.
The rules of the scrum are pretty much unenforceable by a single referee that can only see one side of the scrummage and some rules are completely ignored (e.g. feeding the ball into the middle of the scrum).
Having said that, it's an exciting, flowing game that's miles more enjoyable to watch than football (soccer), which in the UK at least is far too tribal.
Sounds like the NFL : -)
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March 7, 2013 at 10:25 am
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
Sean Lange (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/6/2013)
Several years ago my oldest daughter's JV soccer coach once confieded "I knew we were in trouble when half the team asked what was offsides?"Well, I've just seen the equivalent here with the question "What is SSMS?"
And you are doing what with SQL Server???
And I thought only the parents were that clueless about soccer here in the States.
Someday when we are in the same town and have some time, I'll explain the dynamics of soccer in the area I live and why I wasn't surprised by this comment.
I do plan on meeting many of the Threadizens at some point.
To be fair, offside is the most difficult concept to understand in the laws of soccer/football. A lot of US residents seem to get tripped up by one or more factors: the line between an offside position and a not-offside position changes almost constantly based on the relative positions of the ball and the second-closest-to-the-goal-line-defender (the identity of whom frequently changes with the flow of the game as well), merely being in an offside position is not an offense, and the conversion of the innocuous "being in an offside position" to a penalizable offside offense occurs based on events that almost always occur some distance from the offending player.
All that said, the rules of soccer/football are so simple that the "most difficult concept" is still not very challenging. The rules themselves consist of 17 "laws of the game" of which the first seven govern the mechanics of a match (the field size and layout, the ball, the players and their equipment, the officials, and the length of the match). The remaining 10 laws that actually apply to game play could probably be printed on 10 or fewer pages of 8.5x11-inch or A4-size paper. Contrast that with the NFL rulebook, which requires 67 pages for the rules governing game play.
Your missing Law 18 -- Common Sense.
Yes, parents have a difficult time with offsides as do some coaches. I have gotten into arguments with coaches because their player was onside when they played the ball passed to them even though they were offside at the time their teammate played (or even touched) the ball.
I like how a referee instructor taught it, the 3 P's: Position, Pal, Participation. Is the player in an offside position at the moment his (or her) teammate plays or touches the ball, and they participate in play. If you don't have all three, no infraction.
I so frequently tell my players that the game is incredibly simple. "Don't use your hands and what the ref says goes". I try to make them leave the arguing with the refs up to me. I have to remind them that their job as a player does not mean calling the game.
Especially with younger players the refs are inconsistent and get lots of calls wrong. I get so frustrated when the players quit playing because they think there was some sort of infraction. The most common thing in these cases I yell to my players who throw up their hands in disgust, "there was no whistle, that means there was no foul". It doesn't matter if the ref missed it or called one that didn't happen. All that matters is what they are calling. The refs hear what I am saying to my players and it usually helps because they tend to be more likely to make calls our way because they know I show them the respect they deserve.
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March 7, 2013 at 11:03 am
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...
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March 7, 2013 at 11:18 am
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...
Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
March 7, 2013 at 11:38 am
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
My view as a player has always been that I don't particularly care whether the referee is calling a tight game (e.g., penalizing every infraction, no matter how trivial) or a loose game (e.g., "letting them play", as we say in the US) as long as the calls are consistent. That way, I know where the line is drawn both in terms of my own play and what my opponents will get away with. It's very frustrating when conduct that the ref has permitted for the whole game suddenly becomes a foul or vice versa.
Jason Wolfkill
March 7, 2013 at 11:43 am
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
My view as a player has always been that I don't particularly care whether the referee is calling a tight game (e.g., penalizing every infraction, no matter how trivial) or a loose game (e.g., "letting them play", as we say in the US) as long as the calls are consistent. That way, I know where the line is drawn both in terms of my own play and what my opponents will get away with. It's very frustrating when conduct that the ref has permitted for the whole game suddenly becomes a foul or vice versa.
Sometimes we will tighten a game simply because one team maybe showing signs of frustration. This can lead to more aggressive play or retaliation. If we tighten the game we can usually control this. One sign is when players start getting chippy, playing the players more than the ball.
We have also loosened up at times when it is apparent the players a showing restraint, and we let them play more. It all comes down to a "feel for the game.' It works great when we get it right, but we are also human.
March 7, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
My view as a player has always been that I don't particularly care whether the referee is calling a tight game (e.g., penalizing every infraction, no matter how trivial) or a loose game (e.g., "letting them play", as we say in the US) as long as the calls are consistent. That way, I know where the line is drawn both in terms of my own play and what my opponents will get away with. It's very frustrating when conduct that the ref has permitted for the whole game suddenly becomes a foul or vice versa.
Sometimes we will tighten a game simply because one team maybe showing signs of frustration. This can lead to more aggressive play or retaliation. If we tighten the game we can usually control this. One sign is when players start getting chippy, playing the players more than the ball.
We have also loosened up at times when it is apparent the players a showing restraint, and we let them play more. It all comes down to a "feel for the game.' It works great when we get it right, but we are also human.
Tightening up when players get chippy isn't what I meant, though. Just about everyone on the field can see the difference in clipping an opponent's ankle during a legitimate effort to play the ball and, for example, a chippy hack at an opponent's ankles. The same contact might occur with the same result, but most people understand why the chippy hack gets whistled while the honest tackle gone awry is excused. Plus, a good officiating crew sees and responds to the early signs that their control of the game may be slipping so they can tighten up with just small adjustments. That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
Jason Wolfkill
March 7, 2013 at 12:07 pm
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
My view as a player has always been that I don't particularly care whether the referee is calling a tight game (e.g., penalizing every infraction, no matter how trivial) or a loose game (e.g., "letting them play", as we say in the US) as long as the calls are consistent. That way, I know where the line is drawn both in terms of my own play and what my opponents will get away with. It's very frustrating when conduct that the ref has permitted for the whole game suddenly becomes a foul or vice versa.
Sometimes we will tighten a game simply because one team maybe showing signs of frustration. This can lead to more aggressive play or retaliation. If we tighten the game we can usually control this. One sign is when players start getting chippy, playing the players more than the ball.
We have also loosened up at times when it is apparent the players a showing restraint, and we let them play more. It all comes down to a "feel for the game.' It works great when we get it right, but we are also human.
Tightening up when players get chippy isn't what I meant, though. Just about everyone on the field can see the difference in clipping an opponent's ankle during a legitimate effort to play the ball and, for example, a chippy hack at an opponent's ankles. The same contact might occur with the same result, but most people understand why the chippy hack gets whistled while the honest tackle gone awry is excused. Plus, a good officiating crew sees and responds to the early signs that their control of the game may be slipping so they can tighten up with just small adjustments. That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
This:
That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
tells me the crew isn't doing their job. The best and simpliest way to look at this is Safe, Fair, Fun. Our first job is safety and from what you described that isn't safe. Shoould have been called a heck of lot earlier. Plus, I can usually tell when two players have just gotten tangled up playing for the ball versus a play on the player instead of the ball. Doesn't mean I won't miss it or make a wrong call, just that I normally can tell.
March 7, 2013 at 12:28 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
This:
That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
tells me the crew isn't doing their job. The best and simpliest way to look at this is Safe, Fair, Fun. Our first job is safety and from what you described that isn't safe. Shoould have been called a heck of lot earlier. Plus, I can usually tell when two players have just gotten tangled up playing for the ball versus a play on the player instead of the ball. Doesn't mean I won't miss it or make a wrong call, just that I normally can tell.
Exactly!!! 😀
My example was pretty extreme, but well within my experience as a player, unfortunately.
Even within the bounds of basic safety, though, inconsistency can be frustrating. As you mentioned, every game has its own "feel" - a game of 18-20 year-olds in peak physical fitness can stand a good bit more physical play than a game of 40-50 year old weekend warriors (ahem . . . looks around as if I don't know who that might be). The level of frustration with the officiating rises when the players can't tell from minute to minute which kind of game the ref is calling - one minute, he ignores a hard shove in the back that forces an opponent off the ball but the next minute calls a foul when a player pushes past an opponent's arm (outstretched for balance) to get to the ball. Both actions are offenses, but the one that many players would ignore as "part of the game" (pushing past an opponent's outstretched arm), especially in a game with a more physical "feel", is whistled while the one that most players would consider patently unfair in any game (shoving an opponent off the ball) is ignored.
Jason Wolfkill
March 7, 2013 at 12:31 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
My view as a player has always been that I don't particularly care whether the referee is calling a tight game (e.g., penalizing every infraction, no matter how trivial) or a loose game (e.g., "letting them play", as we say in the US) as long as the calls are consistent. That way, I know where the line is drawn both in terms of my own play and what my opponents will get away with. It's very frustrating when conduct that the ref has permitted for the whole game suddenly becomes a foul or vice versa.
Sometimes we will tighten a game simply because one team maybe showing signs of frustration. This can lead to more aggressive play or retaliation. If we tighten the game we can usually control this. One sign is when players start getting chippy, playing the players more than the ball.
We have also loosened up at times when it is apparent the players a showing restraint, and we let them play more. It all comes down to a "feel for the game.' It works great when we get it right, but we are also human.
Tightening up when players get chippy isn't what I meant, though. Just about everyone on the field can see the difference in clipping an opponent's ankle during a legitimate effort to play the ball and, for example, a chippy hack at an opponent's ankles. The same contact might occur with the same result, but most people understand why the chippy hack gets whistled while the honest tackle gone awry is excused. Plus, a good officiating crew sees and responds to the early signs that their control of the game may be slipping so they can tighten up with just small adjustments. That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
This:
That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
tells me the crew isn't doing their job. The best and simpliest way to look at this is Safe, Fair, Fun. Our first job is safety and from what you described that isn't safe. Shoould have been called a heck of lot earlier. Plus, I can usually tell when two players have just gotten tangled up playing for the ball versus a play on the player instead of the ball. Doesn't mean I won't miss it or make a wrong call, just that I normally can tell.
Lynn when are coming out here to train our refs? Our league refs are all high school kids.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
March 7, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Sean Lange (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
wolfkillj (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
jcrawf02 (3/7/2013)
You're absolutely right, the players should pay attention to what the ref is calling, not what the rules say, because then they know what they can get away with...Not so much what they can get away with, as I have let trifling infractions go or not called an obvious foul as the team had advantage.
Also, we listen to the players, if they aren't complaining about how physical a game may be, we might not call some things. If we hear complaints from both both sides, we'll tighten up the game.
My view as a player has always been that I don't particularly care whether the referee is calling a tight game (e.g., penalizing every infraction, no matter how trivial) or a loose game (e.g., "letting them play", as we say in the US) as long as the calls are consistent. That way, I know where the line is drawn both in terms of my own play and what my opponents will get away with. It's very frustrating when conduct that the ref has permitted for the whole game suddenly becomes a foul or vice versa.
Sometimes we will tighten a game simply because one team maybe showing signs of frustration. This can lead to more aggressive play or retaliation. If we tighten the game we can usually control this. One sign is when players start getting chippy, playing the players more than the ball.
We have also loosened up at times when it is apparent the players a showing restraint, and we let them play more. It all comes down to a "feel for the game.' It works great when we get it right, but we are also human.
Tightening up when players get chippy isn't what I meant, though. Just about everyone on the field can see the difference in clipping an opponent's ankle during a legitimate effort to play the ball and, for example, a chippy hack at an opponent's ankles. The same contact might occur with the same result, but most people understand why the chippy hack gets whistled while the honest tackle gone awry is excused. Plus, a good officiating crew sees and responds to the early signs that their control of the game may be slipping so they can tighten up with just small adjustments. That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
This:
That's a lot different than watching opponents (and teammates) repeatedly get mugged (like lying-face-down-in-the-dirt-with-cleat-marks-up-the-back-and-over-the-top-of-the-head mugged) for 45-50 minutes, then getting whistled when your feet just get tangled up with an opponent's while going for a 50-50 ball.
tells me the crew isn't doing their job. The best and simpliest way to look at this is Safe, Fair, Fun. Our first job is safety and from what you described that isn't safe. Shoould have been called a heck of lot earlier. Plus, I can usually tell when two players have just gotten tangled up playing for the ball versus a play on the player instead of the ball. Doesn't mean I won't miss it or make a wrong call, just that I normally can tell.
Lynn when are coming out here to train our refs? Our league refs are all high school kids.
Where is out here?
March 7, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
Where is out here?
Kansas City area. I am actually in a town just to the West of the metropolitan area with a few miles of farms in between.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
March 7, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Sean Lange (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
Where is out here?
Kansas City area. I am actually in a town just to the West of the metropolitan area with a few miles of farms in between.
Missouri or Kansas?
March 7, 2013 at 1:27 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
Sean Lange (3/7/2013)
Lynn Pettis (3/7/2013)
Where is out here?
Kansas City area. I am actually in a town just to the West of the metropolitan area with a few miles of farms in between.
Missouri or Kansas?
Kansas side.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
March 7, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Revenant (3/4/2013)
Evil Kraig F (3/4/2013)
Revenant (3/4/2013)
I always find it frustrating when someone asks me or someone else to do things for which T-SQL was not meant, in this case parsing multilevel XML with multiple occurrences of the same tag, yet prohibits use of a tool that would make it a breeze - in this case XML LINQ via CLR Integration.Sorry Revenant. Don't mean to be the cause of your frustration in this case. Clean CLR isn't what scares my DBA's, it's letting my app coders loose with it.
It was not meant at you, Craig. I have been in that situation and I know how it feels.
I feel the same way... I just can't understand why anyone would actually use XML. 😉
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
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