September 21, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
I wouldn't call it blue sky thinking. They actually are trying to figure out how to do exactly the types of things Celko is describing. I'd call 5 years something of a stretch, though. We're not that close to using it as a unique identifier. And by the time we have the tech to do such a thing, I doubt we'll be using memory sticks as the other half of the key.
It is entirely possible that by the time we've figured out how to use DNA as a unique idenitifier, we'll have destroyed our ability to use it as a unique identifier because we'll be able to change people's genetic structure and its expression to cure disease or even just alter appearance. I'm actually writing about that possibility right now.
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September 21, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (9/21/2012)
capnhector (9/21/2012)
ok im breaking out my "Realy? WTF" card on the behaviour twards the end of http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1357081-392-3.aspx. did we really hit Godwin's law?Wow, I frequently disagree with Celko and do again here on SQL Server related concepts, but he's absolutely delusional if he thinks we'll be using DNA as an identifier in 5 years. ...
Here's where we're actually at on DNA: http://genomics.xprize.org/
Yeah. We've got a contest to sequence 100 genomes in less than 30 days, with an accuracy of 1 in 1M, at a cost of less than $1000 per person. Nobody's won it yet.
So, to use Joe's DNA PK, we're allowing database performance of 1 insert every 8 hours, at a cost of $1,000 per insert. After someone wins the prize, AND their patent on the technique is licensed or goes public-domain (17 years). Can't currently be done even that efficiently.
Humans have a little over 10^9 base pairs in their DNA. That means 10^9 bits of storage, if you store the bits sequentially (to avoid positional data having to be stored), and count 1 = CG and 0 = AT, in order to achieve minimal storage needs per genome. 64-bit bytes means 64 BP/byte = 15625000 bytes per genome = 15258 kb (1024 bytes/k) = 14.9 Mb in the PK column, per row. Not including storage overhead. Would take storing some sort of checksum-like value instead of the raw binary, but if you could use varbinary(max) as a PK, it would become possible.
Fun! Can't wait to see what even an Index Seek operation would have to do to perform an equality-check! 😛
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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September 21, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
Well, the thread appears to be locked, so I can't reply, but:Celko
First, email is so obviously not a natural key for a human being that I'm always shocked when people try to use it that way. It's fine as a login string (username), in many cases, but for anything else it's worse than using names. And the problem with using them as logins is that this helps promote security-reuse, which is one of the biggest keys to identity theft. So it's not just bad database design, it's also a security hole, and assists criminals.
That is why you add security after the email address gets you into the database. Has Amazon failed yet?
Um. Yes. http://www.emptyage.com/post/28679875595/yes-i-was-hacked-hard?6f020580
I posted that in that thread. Joe ignored it. Then called me a troll for disagreeing with him.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 21, 2012 at 12:24 pm
GSquared (9/21/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/21/2012)
capnhector (9/21/2012)
ok im breaking out my "Realy? WTF" card on the behaviour twards the end of http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1357081-392-3.aspx. did we really hit Godwin's law?Wow, I frequently disagree with Celko and do again here on SQL Server related concepts, but he's absolutely delusional if he thinks we'll be using DNA as an identifier in 5 years. ...
Here's where we're actually at on DNA: http://genomics.xprize.org/
Yeah. We've got a contest to sequence 100 genomes in less than 30 days, with an accuracy of 1 in 1M, at a cost of less than $1000 per person. Nobody's won it yet.
So, to use Joe's DNA PK, we're allowing database performance of 1 insert every 8 hours, at a cost of $1,000 per insert. After someone wins the prize, AND their patent on the technique is licensed or goes public-domain (17 years). Can't currently be done even that efficiently.
Humans have a little over 10^9 base pairs in their DNA. That means 10^9 bits of storage, if you store the bits sequentially (to avoid positional data having to be stored), and count 1 = CG and 0 = AT, in order to achieve minimal storage needs per genome. 64-bit bytes means 64 BP/byte = 15625000 bytes per genome = 15258 kb (1024 bytes/k) = 14.9 Mb in the PK column, per row. Not including storage overhead. Would take storing some sort of checksum-like value instead of the raw binary, but if you could use varbinary(max) as a PK, it would become possible.
Fun! Can't wait to see what even an Index Seek operation would have to do to perform an equality-check! 😛
You are assuming that computing hardware won't keep pace with the discovery. Or that they'll be able to get this contest won while current technology still hampers such access.
I actually don't think this contest will be won anytime soon and that computing efficiency will be equal to the task when it does get won.
Assuming there isn't a singularity event by then.
September 21, 2012 at 12:26 pm
GSquared (9/21/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
Well, the thread appears to be locked, so I can't reply, but:Celko
First, email is so obviously not a natural key for a human being that I'm always shocked when people try to use it that way. It's fine as a login string (username), in many cases, but for anything else it's worse than using names. And the problem with using them as logins is that this helps promote security-reuse, which is one of the biggest keys to identity theft. So it's not just bad database design, it's also a security hole, and assists criminals.
That is why you add security after the email address gets you into the database. Has Amazon failed yet?
Um. Yes. http://www.emptyage.com/post/28679875595/yes-i-was-hacked-hard?6f020580
I posted that in that thread. Joe ignored it. Then called me a troll for disagreeing with him.
I can't blame him for being defensive. Eugene basically invited Celko into that thread for the sole purpose of roasting him. There really was no excuse for pretending to have an open discussion just to flay the subject alive.
That doesn't mean I disagree with general consensus, but really, that was a harsh thing to do to a person.
September 21, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (9/21/2012)
WayneS (9/21/2012)
Hmm... how would that handle identical twins, etc with identical DNA?Identical twins don't have identical DNA.
Interesting. I hadn't heard this before, and just assumed that what I was taught in school decades ago was correct. Nice information to have... thanks!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
September 21, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
I can't blame him for being defensive. Eugene basically invited Celko into that thread for the sole purpose of roasting him. There really was no excuse for pretending to have an open discussion just to flay the subject alive.That doesn't mean I disagree with general consensus, but really, that was a harsh thing to do to a person.
Agreed! And I think Steve did absolutely the right thing by locking that thread.
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
September 21, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Anyone got time to help out here http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1362892-391-1.aspx?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
September 21, 2012 at 5:03 pm
SQL Kiwi (9/21/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
I can't blame him for being defensive. Eugene basically invited Celko into that thread for the sole purpose of roasting him. There really was no excuse for pretending to have an open discussion just to flay the subject alive.That doesn't mean I disagree with general consensus, but really, that was a harsh thing to do to a person.
Agreed! And I think Steve did absolutely the right thing by locking that thread.
Personally, I am glad that Joe took the high road on that thread. Joe does get pedantic a lot - he knows it and said it. Typically I see his attacks on the code and not so much on the person.
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
September 21, 2012 at 5:21 pm
SQLRNNR
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors
.
Bolding added by this individual ....
+ 100
September 21, 2012 at 5:21 pm
SQLRNNR (9/21/2012)
SQL Kiwi (9/21/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
I can't blame him for being defensive. Eugene basically invited Celko into that thread for the sole purpose of roasting him. There really was no excuse for pretending to have an open discussion just to flay the subject alive.That doesn't mean I disagree with general consensus, but really, that was a harsh thing to do to a person.
Agreed! And I think Steve did absolutely the right thing by locking that thread.
Personally, I am glad that Joe took the high road on that thread. Joe does get pedantic a lot - he knows it and said it. Typically I see his attacks on the code and not so much on the person.
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors.
The interesting part of all this, at least according to Mr. Celko in a PM he sent me when I apologized earlier this year, he likes the antagonism. Almost like he trives on it. Go figure.
September 21, 2012 at 5:37 pm
Lynn Pettis (9/21/2012)
SQLRNNR (9/21/2012)
SQL Kiwi (9/21/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (9/21/2012)
I can't blame him for being defensive. Eugene basically invited Celko into that thread for the sole purpose of roasting him. There really was no excuse for pretending to have an open discussion just to flay the subject alive.That doesn't mean I disagree with general consensus, but really, that was a harsh thing to do to a person.
Agreed! And I think Steve did absolutely the right thing by locking that thread.
Personally, I am glad that Joe took the high road on that thread. Joe does get pedantic a lot - he knows it and said it. Typically I see his attacks on the code and not so much on the person.
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors.
The interesting part of all this, at least according to Mr. Celko in a PM he sent me when I apologized earlier this year, he likes the antagonism. Almost like he trives on it. Go figure.
I don't doubt that for a bit. And maybe it doesn't affect him - but there are still ripple effects to the onlookers.
Just sayin...
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
September 21, 2012 at 5:53 pm
bitbucket-25253 (9/21/2012)
SQLRNNR
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors
.
Bolding added by this individual ....
+ 100
why i posted it here. most of those that pile on joe are thredzians and on the forums allot. come on it may be nice to let loose but lets keep it in the darker corners of the forums where few noobies tread.
For performance Issues see how we like them posted here: How to Post Performance Problems - Gail Shaw[/url]
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September 21, 2012 at 5:57 pm
capnhector (9/21/2012)
bitbucket-25253 (9/21/2012)
SQLRNNR
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors
.
Bolding added by this individual ....
+ 100
why i posted it here. most of those that pile on joe are thredzians and on the forums allot. come on it may be nice to let loose but lets keep it in the darker corners of the forums where few noobies tread.
I tried to avoid that particular pile on and feel I did relatively well, but when Joe takes his constant belittling of the OP, his ISO sales routine, and his general attitude to the darker corners, I'll bring it there as well. I do not know the man but I'd like to take a board to the back of the head of his internet personality some days.
Pot, Kettle, I'm aware of this. He just frustrates me. However, the specific point of 'chill out' is particularly why I haven't gone after him for a while. At one point a respected threadizen asked me if I was on a one-man campaign against him. I've realized Gus, Grant, Jeff, and a few others can high-road him much more effectively than I can, so I've relaxed a bit about it.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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September 21, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Evil Kraig F (9/21/2012)
capnhector (9/21/2012)
bitbucket-25253 (9/21/2012)
SQLRNNR
Targeting Joe and baiting him really needs to stop. And the same can be said of anybody else that has been personally attacked or been the recipient of piling on. The personality of SSC seems to be changing and not in a good way. People need to chill out and just get back to helping other SSC visitors
.
Bolding added by this individual ....
+ 100
why i posted it here. most of those that pile on joe are thredzians and on the forums allot. come on it may be nice to let loose but lets keep it in the darker corners of the forums where few noobies tread.
I tried to avoid that particular pile on and feel I did relatively well, but when Joe takes his constant belittling of the OP, his ISO sales routine, and his general attitude to the darker corners, I'll bring it there as well. I do not know the man but I'd like to take a board to the back of the head of his internet personality some days.
Pot, Kettle, I'm aware of this. He just frustrates me. However, the specific point of 'chill out' is particularly why I haven't gone after him for a while. At one point a respected threadizen asked me if I was on a one-man campaign against him. I've realized Gus, Grant, Jeff, and a few others can high-road him much more effectively than I can, so I've relaxed a bit about it.
FWIW - I noticed that you had backed off him quite a lot over the past couple of months.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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