May 14, 2012 at 6:56 pm
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
Backups? Highly overrated, why would anyone bother?
</tongue in cheek>
Here, here! Why would anyone ever need two copies of the same data? And old copies at that!
😀
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May 14, 2012 at 8:18 pm
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
You do not have to delete data, you can mark rows as inactive or obsolete, which of course allows undo.Which won't help an iota when a DBA connected to the wrong environment issues a truncate table. Stuff happens, from deletes or updates without the where clause, hacks (SQL injection), malicious actions, to auditors wanting to see the data exactly as it was at last year-end.
I think that by the time the next version of SQLS hits the market (2015?), no-deletes and behind the scenes cloning of SQLS VMs will be common practice.
Personally, I disagree, especially in OLTP environments. For OLTP 'logical' deletes make all queries more complex, and you've got the storage volumes to consider as well.
As I said, Gail, I have been on systems where the data is not too volatile. Also, I am getting space in multiples of 5 TB, just ask. I am saying that only reluctantly - I do not want to brag, I am saying that because I have been in this environment for awhile now and for all I know this is the future.
May 14, 2012 at 8:26 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
😉
I don't do this nearly often enough. I do keep those things I don't have media for in SkyDrive or DropBox
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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May 14, 2012 at 10:38 pm
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
Backups? Highly overrated, why would anyone bother?
</tongue in cheek>
Heh... It's funny how many folks we've seen over the years that don't do backups and then post here begging for a way to recover some data. I not only do point-in-time backups. I also do point-in-time restores to a test database every night just to make sure the backups worked correctly. It's all automated and it brings great piece of mind every time I get the "Test DB Restore Completed Successfully" message. Admittedly, it's a relatively small DB of only 50GB but I'd find a way to do a test restore at least once a week even if it were several TB. Someone always needs a fresh copy of a full system for testing.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 15, 2012 at 5:09 am
bitbucket-25253 (5/14/2012)
All ye All ye, Now hear thisHow about commenting on opc.three's post to encourage / discourage him in writing a spackle article:
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1298803-1292-2.aspx#bm1299757
Per your request, opc.three has been arrested and strapped to the pork chop launcher (which has been aimed at the moon). He gets one last appeal in the Kangaroo Court, but I don't expect much to come of it. Hopefully, this will prevent him from sharing knowledge and assisting rookie DBAs in their quest to attain job-relevant knowledge.
:w00t:
May 15, 2012 at 8:21 am
Chad Crawford (5/14/2012)
Wahoo! Just got a note stating that Jason is teaching our users group meeting today. Unfortunately, I'll be the guy that shows up late and has to leave early (please don't be offended), but I'll be there!Chad
Jason did well. I caught the beginning, but had to miss the wrap-up. Good luck in Boston Jason!
Chad
May 15, 2012 at 9:41 am
facts for posteriority
Ha! new favorite un-word. Thanks Revenant!
---------------------------------------------------------
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May 15, 2012 at 11:43 am
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
Backups? Highly overrated, why would anyone bother?
</tongue in cheek>
Actually, you are right - any decent Platform as a Service does it for you behind the scenes. (Although in Azure it is called "cloning.")
clone/snapshot != backup.
If I cannot restore to an earlier point in time to recover from things like accidental deletes, it is a HA tool, not a backup.
It depends. 🙂
You do not have to delete data, you can mark rows as inactive or obsolete, which of course allows undo.
I think that by the time the next version of SQLS hits the market (2015?), no-deletes and behind the scenes cloning of SQLS VMs will be common practice.
I admit that I am probably biased, because I am on BI and OI and data are facts for posteriority and we only seldom delete data.
I guess you would find working with EU data protection law would give you fits! 😛
There is an absolute necessity to be able to delete things for real (that means irreversibly render them invisible/inaccessible, even by physical analysis of the media with full knowledge of all formats and full access to any keys necessary for decryption of the data) if the data is personally identifiable (ie refers to a specific person, who may be identified from the data, perhaps in conjunction with other data). This probably means that "retained for ever" backups, when they contain data about an identifiable person, are illegal. That hasn't been tested in court (yet) - several EU countries are pushing for a change in the law to make it absolutely clear that such backups are always illegal, several others are saying no change is needed because the current law makes them clearly illegal, while others are horrified at some of the proposed changes. A lot of things you wouldn't expect count as identifying a person: an IP address and date and time often counts as identifying a person; so does something which may not on its own dirctly identify a person but might if taken together with other data which has a reasonable possibility of being/becoming visible/accessible to the person who sees/accesses the data - those examples have been tested in court.
Tom
May 15, 2012 at 11:55 am
Tom,
Does EU data protection laws define a difference between sensitive information and personal indentifying information?
May 15, 2012 at 11:55 am
L' Eomot Inversé (5/15/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
Backups? Highly overrated, why would anyone bother?
</tongue in cheek>
Actually, you are right - any decent Platform as a Service does it for you behind the scenes. (Although in Azure it is called "cloning.")
clone/snapshot != backup.
If I cannot restore to an earlier point in time to recover from things like accidental deletes, it is a HA tool, not a backup.
It depends. 🙂
You do not have to delete data, you can mark rows as inactive or obsolete, which of course allows undo.
I think that by the time the next version of SQLS hits the market (2015?), no-deletes and behind the scenes cloning of SQLS VMs will be common practice.
I admit that I am probably biased, because I am on BI and OI and data are facts for posteriority and we only seldom delete data.
I guess you would find working with EU data protection law would give you fits! 😛
There is an absolute necessity to be able to delete things for real (that means irreversibly render them invisible/inaccessible, even by physical analysis of the media with full knowledge of all formats and full access to any keys necessary for decryption of the data) if the data is personally identifiable (ie refers to a specific person, who may be identified from the data, perhaps in conjunction with other data). This probably means that "retained for ever" backups, when they contain data about an identifiable person, are illegal. That hasn't been tested in court (yet) - several EU countries are pushing for a change in the law to make it absolutely clear that such backups are always illegal, several others are saying no change is needed because the current law makes them clearly illegal, while others are horrified at some of the proposed changes. A lot of things you wouldn't expect count as identifying a person: an IP address and date and time often counts as identifying a person; so does something which may not on its own dirctly identify a person but might if taken together with other data which has a reasonable possibility of being/becoming visible/accessible to the person who sees/accesses the data - those examples have been tested in court.
Curious, does the retention period for Personally Identifiable information conflict with the requirements for the retention of other information, such as financial information? If financial information must be retained longer the PI information, what does the law say?
Do the people making and passing these laws even know how technically infeasible it is to selectively delete information from a backup file?
May 15, 2012 at 11:59 am
L' Eomot Inversé (5/15/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
Backups? Highly overrated, why would anyone bother?
</tongue in cheek>
Actually, you are right - any decent Platform as a Service does it for you behind the scenes. (Although in Azure it is called "cloning.")
clone/snapshot != backup.
If I cannot restore to an earlier point in time to recover from things like accidental deletes, it is a HA tool, not a backup.
It depends. 🙂
You do not have to delete data, you can mark rows as inactive or obsolete, which of course allows undo.
I think that by the time the next version of SQLS hits the market (2015?), no-deletes and behind the scenes cloning of SQLS VMs will be common practice.
I admit that I am probably biased, because I am on BI and OI and data are facts for posteriority and we only seldom delete data.
I guess you would find working with EU data protection law would give you fits! 😛
There is an absolute necessity to be able to delete things for real (that means irreversibly render them invisible/inaccessible, even by physical analysis of the media with full knowledge of all formats and full access to any keys necessary for decryption of the data) if the data is personally identifiable (ie refers to a specific person, who may be identified from the data, perhaps in conjunction with other data). This probably means that "retained for ever" backups, when they contain data about an identifiable person, are illegal. That hasn't been tested in court (yet) - several EU countries are pushing for a change in the law to make it absolutely clear that such backups are always illegal, several others are saying no change is needed because the current law makes them clearly illegal, while others are horrified at some of the proposed changes. A lot of things you wouldn't expect count as identifying a person: an IP address and date and time often counts as identifying a person; so does something which may not on its own dirctly identify a person but might if taken together with other data which has a reasonable possibility of being/becoming visible/accessible to the person who sees/accesses the data - those examples have been tested in court.
Does obscuring the data so it is no longer attributable to a specific inividual satisfy the requirements?
--------------------------------------
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May 15, 2012 at 12:06 pm
There was a recent thread where the OP wanted to return the difference between two date/time values as hh:mm:ss. Does anyone remember this thread?
May 15, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Lynn Pettis (5/15/2012)
L' Eomot Inversé (5/15/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Revenant (5/14/2012)
GilaMonster (5/14/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/14/2012)
Jack Corbett (5/14/2012)
I haven't done a backup, restore, or anythign with security since I've been there.Whaaa? No backups of your laptop? None of your music? No pictures?
Backups? Highly overrated, why would anyone bother?
</tongue in cheek>
Actually, you are right - any decent Platform as a Service does it for you behind the scenes. (Although in Azure it is called "cloning.")
clone/snapshot != backup.
If I cannot restore to an earlier point in time to recover from things like accidental deletes, it is a HA tool, not a backup.
It depends. 🙂
You do not have to delete data, you can mark rows as inactive or obsolete, which of course allows undo.
I think that by the time the next version of SQLS hits the market (2015?), no-deletes and behind the scenes cloning of SQLS VMs will be common practice.
I admit that I am probably biased, because I am on BI and OI and data are facts for posteriority and we only seldom delete data.
I guess you would find working with EU data protection law would give you fits! 😛
There is an absolute necessity to be able to delete things for real (that means irreversibly render them invisible/inaccessible, even by physical analysis of the media with full knowledge of all formats and full access to any keys necessary for decryption of the data) if the data is personally identifiable (ie refers to a specific person, who may be identified from the data, perhaps in conjunction with other data). This probably means that "retained for ever" backups, when they contain data about an identifiable person, are illegal. That hasn't been tested in court (yet) - several EU countries are pushing for a change in the law to make it absolutely clear that such backups are always illegal, several others are saying no change is needed because the current law makes them clearly illegal, while others are horrified at some of the proposed changes. A lot of things you wouldn't expect count as identifying a person: an IP address and date and time often counts as identifying a person; so does something which may not on its own dirctly identify a person but might if taken together with other data which has a reasonable possibility of being/becoming visible/accessible to the person who sees/accesses the data - those examples have been tested in court.
Curious, does the retention period for Personally Identifiable information conflict with the requirements for the retention of other information, such as financial information? If financial information must be retained longer the PI information, what does the law say?
Do the people making and passing these laws even know how technically infeasible it is to selectively delete information from a backup file?
Do those people realize that there are systems that were designed not to allow deletion of information until it expires at predetermined time?
It is funny because at this side of the pond the pressure is exactly opposite, for example, for finance systems and mail systems to never allow deletion of anything within 7 years.
May 15, 2012 at 12:56 pm
EU Data protection law is a bit fierce, but yeah, we're the opposite. I know a few smaller companies who have boxes upon boxes upon boxes of stuff stored in attics and they have them organized by 'year' so they know when/what they can get rid of.
Yeah, that wouldn't happen here, at least not right now.
@Gail: Was being a wise-arse, thought I'd get a laugh, not boggling confusions... :hehe:
Vegas was fun, and as usual gambling is expensive if you don't leave when you're up!
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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May 15, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Evil Kraig F (5/15/2012)
@Gail: Was being a wise-arse, thought I'd get a laugh, not boggling confusions... :hehe:
Yeah, i figured as much, knowing you.
And for the record... still waiting.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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