April 5, 2012 at 10:25 am
Jan Van der Eecken (4/5/2012)
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
... Basically, when would I use fragmentation was part of the question.
I don't know, but I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt. English is clearly not his/her first language.
I know, I know, I should be more saintly considering who I am ( 😉 ), but considering other things in my very current past history it is a little difficult. And I think I'll leave it at that, at least publicly.
April 5, 2012 at 10:27 am
GilaMonster (4/5/2012)
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
Has anyone written up what happens to a table when a clustered index is dropped making the table a heap? What I am wondering is if the order of the data changes or does it retain the logical order of the data at the time the clustered index was dropped?I would imaging the order be retained. There's no logical reason to re-order the table when dropping a cluster, seeing as a heap has no concept of order.
If not, what native tools could be used to investigate what happens? Seems to be an interesting topic.
DBCC IND, DBCC PAGE.
Thanks Gail. Hoping I have time to do some research and see what transpires with a table.
April 5, 2012 at 10:28 am
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
Jan Van der Eecken (4/5/2012)
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
... Basically, when would I use fragmentation was part of the question.
I don't know, but I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt. English is clearly not his/her first language.
I know, I know, I should be more saintly considering who I am ( 😉 ), but considering other things in my very current past history it is a little difficult. And I think I'll leave it at that, at least publicly.
Nah, one of the requirements for being a saint is being dead.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 5, 2012 at 10:30 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
Jan Van der Eecken (4/5/2012)
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
... Basically, when would I use fragmentation was part of the question.
I don't know, but I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt. English is clearly not his/her first language.
I know, I know, I should be more saintly considering who I am ( 😉 ), but considering other things in my very current past history it is a little difficult. And I think I'll leave it at that, at least publicly.
Nah, one of the requirements for being a saint is being dead.
Not necessarily. Depends on your definition of saint.
April 5, 2012 at 10:48 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/5/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
SQLRNNR (4/5/2012)
Koen Verbeeck (4/5/2012)
Grant Fritchey (4/5/2012)
Yeah, I feel for him. I've had WAY too many arguments with people demanding that I rearrange the laws of physics because they said so.If I say gravity goes up, then gravity goes up, dammit!
Define "up"
Whatever direction I say it is at any given moment.
Up is the direction the house floats when all the balloons are inflated.
Up is one of the most depressing movies ever, and makes me want to spend every waking moment making sure that I do everything my wife ever wanted. Ever.
God damn Disney movies.
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
April 5, 2012 at 10:58 am
jcrawf02 (4/5/2012)
Up is one of the most depressing movies ever, and makes me want to spend every waking moment making sure that I do everything my wife ever wanted. Ever.God damn Disney movies.
I agree. My kids liked it, but we all agreed it was very sad.
April 5, 2012 at 11:03 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/5/2012)
jcrawf02 (4/5/2012)
Up is one of the most depressing movies ever, and makes me want to spend every waking moment making sure that I do everything my wife ever wanted. Ever.God damn Disney movies.
I agree. My kids liked it, but we all agreed it was very sad.
squirrel......
April 5, 2012 at 11:12 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (4/5/2012)
Wow. Reading that thread and comparing it to the several 17+ hour shifts I've got through the past couple of days...I think I'll keep my current job. My boss and his boss know better than to let anyone tie our hands that way.
At least the workarounds everyone is coming up with are fascinating reading. Were I in his situation and my boss gave me the restrictions he's been give, I'd simply say "OK, and how am I supposed to do that? I don't think it can be done, but if you have a way I'd love to learn it." Sometimes throwing it back at the decision makers is the only way to get any progress. I've been in situations where the decision makers simply didn't know that what they were asking was impossible or would require years of work and when they found out, they changed their minds.
I don't know about the whole thing. Not being allowed/able to modify a third-party database in any way is pretty common. Make any changes at all, and you risk violating service contracts, support agreements, et al. But I can see where there could easily be a need to audit the database outside the scope of the third-party's involvement. Especially if you don't fully trust the third party, or have a legal or other requirement for internal auditability.
Yeah, he's between a rock and a hard place, but it's not really a stretch to see that they could be completely legitimate concerns. Not to me anyway.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
April 5, 2012 at 11:17 am
Grant Fritchey (4/5/2012)
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2012)
I'm sorry, but I started laughing to myself when I read this one.Look at it as a complement. To many people, we're the SQL Server documentation. That's pretty cool.
If I look at it any other way I start to get annoyed.
There is that factor to it.
To me there's also a need to avoid the "RTFM you moron/n00b/whatever" attitude that I've seen on a lot of other forums about a lot of technology products/services.
I prefer to err on the side of being helpful and trusting, rather than the other way around.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
April 5, 2012 at 11:22 am
I can't avoid it any longer. I need to rant.
RANT
"The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round..."
Seriously. This is my week. I'm thinking my next bonus needs to be in the form of a massage therapist.
April 5, 2012 at 11:22 am
GSquared (4/5/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (4/5/2012)
Wow. Reading that thread and comparing it to the several 17+ hour shifts I've got through the past couple of days...I think I'll keep my current job. My boss and his boss know better than to let anyone tie our hands that way.
At least the workarounds everyone is coming up with are fascinating reading. Were I in his situation and my boss gave me the restrictions he's been give, I'd simply say "OK, and how am I supposed to do that? I don't think it can be done, but if you have a way I'd love to learn it." Sometimes throwing it back at the decision makers is the only way to get any progress. I've been in situations where the decision makers simply didn't know that what they were asking was impossible or would require years of work and when they found out, they changed their minds.
I don't know about the whole thing. Not being allowed/able to modify a third-party database in any way is pretty common. Make any changes at all, and you risk violating service contracts, support agreements, et al. But I can see where there could easily be a need to audit the database outside the scope of the third-party's involvement. Especially if you don't fully trust the third party, or have a legal or other requirement for internal auditability.
Yeah, he's between a rock and a hard place, but it's not really a stretch to see that they could be completely legitimate concerns. Not to me anyway.
Oh sure, I've worked with plenty of third party systems, but when the boss says "I need you to X, but not touch anything" and you say "ok, how" sometimes that's all it takes for them to realize they're making an unreasonable request.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 5, 2012 at 11:24 am
Topic Change:
If you are in the area (or just visiting)
Check this out:
My wife has opened her new Photo Studio[/url]
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 5, 2012 at 11:37 am
GSquared (4/5/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (4/5/2012)
Wow. Reading that thread and comparing it to the several 17+ hour shifts I've got through the past couple of days...I think I'll keep my current job. My boss and his boss know better than to let anyone tie our hands that way.
At least the workarounds everyone is coming up with are fascinating reading. Were I in his situation and my boss gave me the restrictions he's been give, I'd simply say "OK, and how am I supposed to do that? I don't think it can be done, but if you have a way I'd love to learn it." Sometimes throwing it back at the decision makers is the only way to get any progress. I've been in situations where the decision makers simply didn't know that what they were asking was impossible or would require years of work and when they found out, they changed their minds.
I don't know about the whole thing. Not being allowed/able to modify a third-party database in any way is pretty common. Make any changes at all, and you risk violating service contracts, support agreements, et al. But I can see where there could easily be a need to audit the database outside the scope of the third-party's involvement. Especially if you don't fully trust the third party, or have a legal or other requirement for internal auditability.
Yeah, he's between a rock and a hard place, but it's not really a stretch to see that they could be completely legitimate concerns. Not to me anyway.
I've worked with those kinds of DB...
The thing is, some of the suggestions he's refused don't change the database.
Transactional replication - just reads the tran log (unless there are tables without primary keys)
Change tracking - has to be enabled on a per-table level, but doesn't create or alter any objects in the DB
Extended events - created at a server level, nothing in the DB
SQLAudit - server level objects mostly, with just the audit specification going into the user DB, but that's data in a system table, not a schema change (no tables, procedures, triggers, views, functions required)
So, is the entire server read-only? If so, that's pretty close to impossible.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 5, 2012 at 12:30 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
GSquared (4/5/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (4/5/2012)
Wow. Reading that thread and comparing it to the several 17+ hour shifts I've got through the past couple of days...I think I'll keep my current job. My boss and his boss know better than to let anyone tie our hands that way.
At least the workarounds everyone is coming up with are fascinating reading. Were I in his situation and my boss gave me the restrictions he's been give, I'd simply say "OK, and how am I supposed to do that? I don't think it can be done, but if you have a way I'd love to learn it." Sometimes throwing it back at the decision makers is the only way to get any progress. I've been in situations where the decision makers simply didn't know that what they were asking was impossible or would require years of work and when they found out, they changed their minds.
I don't know about the whole thing. Not being allowed/able to modify a third-party database in any way is pretty common. Make any changes at all, and you risk violating service contracts, support agreements, et al. But I can see where there could easily be a need to audit the database outside the scope of the third-party's involvement. Especially if you don't fully trust the third party, or have a legal or other requirement for internal auditability.
Yeah, he's between a rock and a hard place, but it's not really a stretch to see that they could be completely legitimate concerns. Not to me anyway.
Oh sure, I've worked with plenty of third party systems, but when the boss says "I need you to X, but not touch anything" and you say "ok, how" sometimes that's all it takes for them to realize they're making an unreasonable request.
True. Not disagreeing with that. Just trying to allay some of the "WTF" reactions that thread is getting.
My version of your idea is, "I don't know a way to do that, so we'll need to bring in a contractor for it. What do we have in the budget for that?" Doesn't dump it on the boss (that can be bad), but says essentially the same thing.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
April 5, 2012 at 12:32 pm
GilaMonster (4/5/2012)
GSquared (4/5/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/5/2012)
Brandie Tarvin (4/5/2012)
Wow. Reading that thread and comparing it to the several 17+ hour shifts I've got through the past couple of days...I think I'll keep my current job. My boss and his boss know better than to let anyone tie our hands that way.
At least the workarounds everyone is coming up with are fascinating reading. Were I in his situation and my boss gave me the restrictions he's been give, I'd simply say "OK, and how am I supposed to do that? I don't think it can be done, but if you have a way I'd love to learn it." Sometimes throwing it back at the decision makers is the only way to get any progress. I've been in situations where the decision makers simply didn't know that what they were asking was impossible or would require years of work and when they found out, they changed their minds.
I don't know about the whole thing. Not being allowed/able to modify a third-party database in any way is pretty common. Make any changes at all, and you risk violating service contracts, support agreements, et al. But I can see where there could easily be a need to audit the database outside the scope of the third-party's involvement. Especially if you don't fully trust the third party, or have a legal or other requirement for internal auditability.
Yeah, he's between a rock and a hard place, but it's not really a stretch to see that they could be completely legitimate concerns. Not to me anyway.
I've worked with those kinds of DB...
The thing is, some of the suggestions he's refused don't change the database.
Transactional replication - just reads the tran log (unless there are tables without primary keys)
Change tracking - has to be enabled on a per-table level, but doesn't create or alter any objects in the DB
Extended events - created at a server level, nothing in the DB
SQLAudit - server level objects mostly, with just the audit specification going into the user DB, but that's data in a system table, not a schema change (no tables, procedures, triggers, views, functions required)
So, is the entire server read-only? If so, that's pretty close to impossible.
I'd go as far as saying it's actually impossible in those cases.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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