January 13, 2012 at 10:50 pm
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
Sean Lange (1/13/2012)
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
Sean Lange (1/13/2012)
I have to say this whole situation has left me feeling extremely reluctant to post on just about anything for fear that I come across as "one of those", or maybe I am one which would be even worse. It is unfortunate that the well was poisoned. This site has been a fantastic learning opportunity for myself as well as many others.Don't fall for the trap of the troll. You, good sir, and many others that feel like you do, actually feel that way because you're one of the good ones. Compare the number of people you've helped (even if some don't thank you) and who have thanked you profusely to the uninformed accusations of a blatherskite troll who probably hasn't helped a soul in his life.
The next rain will clear the well. You just have to be careful not to piss in your own well. 😉
Thanks Jeff. I make it a point not to piss in the river I drink from, but on those rare occasions where I have no choice I do it downstream. 😛
I have no intentions of leaving or anything just saying how the whole situation rubbed me.
If you really want to see something that should have made someone leave, you should see the "wonderful" posts I got on the discussion for the running totals/Quirky Update articles I've written.
Glad to hear it rubbed you the wrong way... Like I said, things like what that troll said will always rub good people the wrong way. I bit my lip clean through when I read that thread.
And, yeah... I was worried about you leaving because of that bit of diatribe. Thanks for confirming that you're not. You would be sorely missed.
It seems we get 1 or 2 of those types of threads a year. It will happen again. Things will smooth over. Sometimes it serves as a good reminder on how we can better help. Sometimes it's just a load of crap.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 13, 2012 at 10:52 pm
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
Sean Lange (1/13/2012)
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
Sean Lange (1/13/2012)
I have to say this whole situation has left me feeling extremely reluctant to post on just about anything for fear that I come across as "one of those", or maybe I am one which would be even worse. It is unfortunate that the well was poisoned. This site has been a fantastic learning opportunity for myself as well as many others.Don't fall for the trap of the troll. You, good sir, and many others that feel like you do, actually feel that way because you're one of the good ones. Compare the number of people you've helped (even if some don't thank you) and who have thanked you profusely to the uninformed accusations of a blatherskite troll who probably hasn't helped a soul in his life.
The next rain will clear the well. You just have to be careful not to piss in your own well. 😉
Thanks Jeff. I make it a point not to piss in the river I drink from, but on those rare occasions where I have no choice I do it downstream. 😛
I have no intentions of leaving or anything just saying how the whole situation rubbed me.
If you really want to see something that should have made someone leave, you should see the "wonderful" posts I got on the discussion for the running totals/Quirky Update articles I've written.
Glad to hear it rubbed you the wrong way... Like I said, things like what that troll said will always rub good people the wrong way. I bit my lip clean through when I read that thread.
And, yeah... I was worried about you leaving because of that bit of diatribe. Thanks for confirming that you're not. You would be sorely missed.
+1 Regarding what Jeff has said. I have been in simular situations but I stuck it out as well. It is hard at times, but in the end it really comes down to the people that you help.
January 13, 2012 at 11:28 pm
Sean Lange (1/13/2012)
I have to say this whole situation has left me feeling extremely reluctant to post on just about anything for fear that I come across as "one of those", or maybe I am one which would be even worse. It is unfortunate that the well was poisoned. This site has been a fantastic learning opportunity for myself as well as many others.
No, your posts are great.
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
January 14, 2012 at 3:50 am
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
It would appear that MS finding out about someone using such a site and revoking their cert because of it has been and certainly is nothing but a myth.
No, it's not. I can't say more in public, but the statement that MS can and will revoke certs when people use illegal study material (braindumps, actual questions from the exam) is not a myth
However neither Transcender nor MeasureUp are braindump sites. They are MS learning partners, they produce practice exams that test the material covered by the certifications, not the ability to memorise the question.
Saying that using practice tests to study for exams is wrong is like saying that students shouldn't do exercises in text books (for say maths or physics) as a way to study for their university exams. Stealing the actual exam paper (or examiner's answer sheet) and memorising questions is wrong, but practising example questions (text books, teacher/lecturer provided examples, old papers) is an old and established way of studying, of showing before you write the actual exam what gaps there are in your knowledge.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 14, 2012 at 8:50 am
There's one thing I wonder about: the "Test Pass guarantee" (https://partner.microsoft.com/40161629).
I usually question any source that'll guarantee someone will pass a test without knowing anything about that person at all. From my point of view the only way to guarantee such a thing would be to know the questions and answers and braindump.
January 14, 2012 at 9:20 am
GilaMonster (1/14/2012)
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
It would appear that MS finding out about someone using such a site and revoking their cert because of it has been and certainly is nothing but a myth.No, it's not. I can't say more in public, but the statement that MS can and will revoke certs when people use illegal study material (braindumps, actual questions from the exam) is not a myth
However neither Transcender nor MeasureUp are braindump sites. They are MS learning partners, they produce practice exams that test the material covered by the certifications, not the ability to memorise the question.
Saying that using practice tests to study for exams is wrong is like saying that students shouldn't do exercises in text books (for say maths or physics) as a way to study for their university exams. Stealing the actual exam paper (or examiner's answer sheet) and memorising questions is wrong, but practising example questions (text books, teacher/lecturer provided examples, old papers) is an old and established way of studying, of showing before you write the actual exam what gaps there are in your knowledge.
Thanks Gail. That covers it so much better than my sloppy response.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 14, 2012 at 9:41 am
LutzM (1/14/2012)
There's one thing I wonder about: the "Test Pass guarantee" (https://partner.microsoft.com/40161629).I usually question any source that'll guarantee someone will pass a test without knowing anything about that person at all. From my point of view the only way to guarantee such a thing would be to know the questions and answers and braindump.
It's a fancy way of saying, 'we'll give you your money back if you fail (subject to several pages of conditions)". Those are not braindumps, there is no way in the world that Transcender and MeasureUp would risk losing their partner status and being subject to legal action by doing that. I've seen Transcender sample tests before, they're miles from the real exams.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 14, 2012 at 12:52 pm
SQLRNNR (1/13/2012)
Transcender (not sure about MeasureUp) has often teamed up with Microsoft for things like this. I have even seen some of these practice tests and can say that they are not like the actual exam. Sure they give you a butload of questions to try and simulate a test taking experience. But it is not a dump of the exam. From what I have seen it is very much constructed to be easier than the real exams. The questions are veeeeeerrrry basic and based typically on MOC (which is lacking).Don't fret too much that there is this discount. Some people like the warm fuzzy of simulating an exam because they don't test well. These particular test engines are for those people. But if you think you can just use transcender and not have real experience and common sense in the field, then you won't pass unless you are lucky.
I'm torn on this. On one hand, it's not an inconsequential investment to take the test, and if you've never taken one, it is intimidating. MS does not do a good job of showing a practice test just so that someone is familiar with the format. Even after taking a couple MCSE ones a decade ago, I was nervous. Having some type of simulation to get yourself mentally prepared makes some sense to me.
However, I have heard some companies send people into the exams, and have them sneak out papers for the exam to better simulate what is there, with questions that are barely changed from the actual ones. That then becomes a cheat sheet.
Ultimately I think the exams aren't well done. They don't have a large enough pool of questions, they aren't "thinking" questions, and there's no feedback about what you did wrong. I'd rather have them give a little more pointed feedback on what areas you need work on (not necessarily the question you got wrong) and also use more adaptive methods that get people to think and better assess their knowledge, not their memory.
January 14, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (1/14/2012)
However, I have heard some companies send people into the exams, and have them sneak out papers for the exam to better simulate what is there, with questions that are barely changed from the actual ones. That then becomes a cheat sheet.
Now that is a complete and total violation of exam policy in several areas (removing items from the exam centre, distributing exam content, using illegal study material), and that is outright cheating.
If you have names (companies, individuals or exam centres), please pass them on to exam fraud.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 14, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (1/14/2012)
Ultimately I think the exams aren't well done. They don't have a large enough pool of questions, they aren't "thinking" questions, and there's no feedback about what you did wrong. I'd rather have them give a little more pointed feedback on what areas you need work on (not necessarily the question you got wrong) and also use more adaptive methods that get people to think and better assess their knowledge, not their memory.
I think MS has heard this complaint and is really trying to improve.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 15, 2012 at 6:52 pm
GilaMonster (1/14/2012)
Jeff Moden (1/13/2012)
It would appear that MS finding out about someone using such a site and revoking their cert because of it has been and certainly is nothing but a myth.No, it's not. I can't say more in public, but the statement that MS can and will revoke certs when people use illegal study material (braindumps, actual questions from the exam) is not a myth
However neither Transcender nor MeasureUp are braindump sites. They are MS learning partners, they produce practice exams that test the material covered by the certifications, not the ability to memorise the question.
Saying that using practice tests to study for exams is wrong is like saying that students shouldn't do exercises in text books (for say maths or physics) as a way to study for their university exams. Stealing the actual exam paper (or examiner's answer sheet) and memorising questions is wrong, but practising example questions (text books, teacher/lecturer provided examples, old papers) is an old and established way of studying, of showing before you write the actual exam what gaps there are in your knowledge.
IF someone uses practice tests only to see where they may fall short and THEN study/practice to overcome that deficit, then I agree.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 15, 2012 at 6:56 pm
GilaMonster (1/14/2012)
I've seen Transcender sample tests before, they're miles from the real exams.
Then, totally switching gears, are such sample tests actually helping to learn those things necessary to pass the test? To put it another way, if they're so far from the real exams, do they actually show you where you may be light so you can study those areas more?
And, no... I'm not trying to be contentious here... I'd really like to know.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 15, 2012 at 7:57 pm
Jeff Moden (1/15/2012)
GilaMonster (1/14/2012)
I've seen Transcender sample tests before, they're miles from the real exams.Then, totally switching gears, are such sample tests actually helping to learn those things necessary to pass the test? To put it another way, if they're so far from the real exams, do they actually show you where you may be light so you can study those areas more?
And, no... I'm not trying to be contentious here... I'd really like to know.
The problem, or at least one of the problems, is that the tests are ALWAYS behind the state of the art. We may talk about brain dumps and all that until cows come home, but the fact is that there is 2012 waiting for the official release; IMO all adequate tests today ought to be for that one - the newest version -, because that is the one people who are taking tests today will be working with three months down the road.
Would it help if certification tests were of two different kinds?
Test One, General: Understanding of the relational model and of the philosophy of the implementation of that model by SQLS.
Test Two, Release Specific: General proficiency in the current version of SQLS (as of today, 10.5 released, 11 in RTM).
Meaning, you would take the first test only once, but you would need to get a re-certification for each new release.
Would that make sense?
January 15, 2012 at 8:49 pm
Am I the only one sensing a mid-level cert discussion coming up?
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
January 15, 2012 at 10:09 pm
Revenant (1/15/2012)
The problem, or at least one of the problems, is that the tests are ALWAYS behind the state of the art. We may talk about brain dumps and all that until cows come home, but the fact is that there is 2012 waiting for the official release; IMO all adequate tests today ought to be for that one - the newest version -, because that is the one people who are taking tests today will be working with three months down the road.
I have to utterly disagree here. If we get to 2k8 in the next year at my current position it'll be a surprise. I know a lot of locations that are still debating on not going to 2k8 for a few years yet.
Denali isn't a light in most company's eyes.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
Viewing 15 posts - 33,691 through 33,705 (of 66,712 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply