December 29, 2011 at 9:28 am
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
I thought some "Magic" (recovery trick) will happen & that DB will be saved. It’s a nice learning opportunity that I missed. However the lessons learnt today (reminder actually), keep your DB and Backups in good shape & ensure it with proper restoration scenarios Else nobody (even experts here) can help.Yep. No substitute for tested backups. Simple as that.
Speaking of which, where do you all test your backups? Prod Server, Dev Server, Test Server, special server just to test backup restores?
Test Server off course. But it needs to be done once in a year on PROD server, a FULL backup as per company policy.
Just to explain my previous post correctly (I guess its required), Test Server != QA Server. It's a Special Server (just like Roy's last post) assigned to DBAs for simulating PROD environment.
Yeah, we're just getting a dev server here now and I'm forced to find another place to test backups as there's no longer room on the dev server. That's all we'd been using it for, but now that we're setting up an actual dev environment, there's no space for testing restores. There's also no room to do that on the Prod machine and we don't have a test or qa machine. That's why I was curious about the setup others have to do that kind of test. I don't have room on my machine either.
Lack of server resources for it is one of the common reasons for not testing. Sucks when it's like that.
Argue the need for a test environment of that sort like you were trying to bat down one of my wackier political ideas. No holds barred, go for blood, etc. Worth it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
December 29, 2011 at 9:29 am
Grant Fritchey (12/29/2011)
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Grant Fritchey (12/27/2011)
Based on the fact that we can't get people to run good sets of backups despite Umptymillion articles, blog posts, presentations, webcasts and screaming lightning talks, I don't think you're going to be giving away the secrets of the universe.You mean like this: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1227066-146-1.aspx
It's just creepy. Seriously creepy just how often this occurs. You keep thinking that people will learn but they never seem to without having a giant wall fall on them first.
Some don't learn even after having a wall fall on them. I recall someone from SQLTeam posted a corrupt DB problem every couple of weeks, all weird and nasty corruption, never had a backup once.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 29, 2011 at 9:29 am
Grant Fritchey (12/29/2011)
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Grant Fritchey (12/27/2011)
Based on the fact that we can't get people to run good sets of backups despite Umptymillion articles, blog posts, presentations, webcasts and screaming lightning talks, I don't think you're going to be giving away the secrets of the universe.You mean like this: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1227066-146-1.aspx
It's just creepy. Seriously creepy just how often this occurs. You keep thinking that people will learn but they never seem to without having a giant wall fall on them first.
I've talked to others who are SQL Server people who insist that file backups work just fine and I had to explain several times (before we switched to EMC backups) that when I said I wanted my files backed up I meant the bak files, not the database files. They couldn't understand why I wanted to back up my backups.
I suppose it doesn't help that sometimes re-attaching the database files works, like if you're re-installing SQL Server and just make sure the files are where they are expected.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
December 29, 2011 at 9:31 am
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
Grant Fritchey (12/29/2011)
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Grant Fritchey (12/27/2011)
Based on the fact that we can't get people to run good sets of backups despite Umptymillion articles, blog posts, presentations, webcasts and screaming lightning talks, I don't think you're going to be giving away the secrets of the universe.You mean like this: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1227066-146-1.aspx
It's just creepy. Seriously creepy just how often this occurs. You keep thinking that people will learn but they never seem to without having a giant wall fall on them first.
I've talked to others who are SQL Server people who insist that file backups work just fine and I had to explain several times (before we switched to EMC backups) that when I said I wanted my files backed up I meant the bak files, not the database files. They couldn't understand why I wanted to back up my backups.
I suppose it doesn't help that sometimes re-attaching the database files works, like if you're re-installing SQL Server and just make sure the files are where they are expected.
And they don't understand that that only works if the database had a clean shut-down.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
December 29, 2011 at 9:31 am
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
I thought some "Magic" (recovery trick) will happen & that DB will be saved. It’s a nice learning opportunity that I missed. However the lessons learnt today (reminder actually), keep your DB and Backups in good shape & ensure it with proper restoration scenarios Else nobody (even experts here) can help.Yep. No substitute for tested backups. Simple as that.
Speaking of which, where do you all test your backups? Prod Server, Dev Server, Test Server, special server just to test backup restores?
Test Server off course. But it needs to be done once in a year on PROD server, a FULL backup as per company policy.
Just to explain my previous post correctly (I guess its required), Test Server != QA Server. It's a Special Server (just like Roy's last post) assigned to DBAs for simulating PROD environment.
Yeah, we're just getting a dev server here now and I'm forced to find another place to test backups as there's no longer room on the dev server. That's all we'd been using it for, but now that we're setting up an actual dev environment, there's no space for testing restores. There's also no room to do that on the Prod machine and we don't have a test or qa machine. That's why I was curious about the setup others have to do that kind of test. I don't have room on my machine either.
We do restore PROD backups onto UAT, then re-deploy new user-tested features, if applicable. This keeps UAT as close to PROD as possible.
December 29, 2011 at 9:32 am
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I don't have room on my machine either.
Two words: External harddrive.
Seriously, I've had to do that once or twice.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 29, 2011 at 9:34 am
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I suppose it doesn't help that sometimes re-attaching the database files works, like if you're re-installing SQL Server and just make sure the files are where they are expected.And they don't understand that that only works if the database had a clean shut-down.
It'll work with a non-clean shutdown too, providing the log file is intact. It will sometimes work with an online and in-use database too. Just depends which file is copied first and whether there are active transactions (user or system) at the time.
It's something where the attach will work 9 times and fail the 10th, which is why it's so hard to persuade people that it is not the correct way.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 29, 2011 at 9:38 am
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Dev (12/29/2011)
I thought some "Magic" (recovery trick) will happen & that DB will be saved. It’s a nice learning opportunity that I missed. However the lessons learnt today (reminder actually), keep your DB and Backups in good shape & ensure it with proper restoration scenarios Else nobody (even experts here) can help.Yep. No substitute for tested backups. Simple as that.
Speaking of which, where do you all test your backups? Prod Server, Dev Server, Test Server, special server just to test backup restores?
Test Server off course. But it needs to be done once in a year on PROD server, a FULL backup as per company policy.
Just to explain my previous post correctly (I guess its required), Test Server != QA Server. It's a Special Server (just like Roy's last post) assigned to DBAs for simulating PROD environment.
Yeah, we're just getting a dev server here now and I'm forced to find another place to test backups as there's no longer room on the dev server. That's all we'd been using it for, but now that we're setting up an actual dev environment, there's no space for testing restores. There's also no room to do that on the Prod machine and we don't have a test or qa machine. That's why I was curious about the setup others have to do that kind of test. I don't have room on my machine either.
Lack of server resources for it is one of the common reasons for not testing. Sucks when it's like that.
Argue the need for a test environment of that sort like you were trying to bat down one of my wackier political ideas. No holds barred, go for blood, etc. Worth it.
I have been, believe me : -)
I've just finished arguing for a dev machine, they are getting sick of me asking for servers. They're especially sick of me asking for servers that are even similar to the prod server, they want to use smaller, less powerful machines for dev and any test we might get. They'll probably end up being VM machines.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
December 29, 2011 at 9:41 am
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I don't have room on my machine either.Two words: External harddrive.
Seriously, I've had to do that once or twice.
I can't even get them to buy that. : -(
I thought SQL Server files had to be on an internal drive unless they were on a SAN. I must be mis-remembering something.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
December 29, 2011 at 9:43 am
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I suppose it doesn't help that sometimes re-attaching the database files works, like if you're re-installing SQL Server and just make sure the files are where they are expected.And they don't understand that that only works if the database had a clean shut-down.
It'll work with a non-clean shutdown too, providing the log file is intact. It will sometimes work with an online and in-use database too. Just depends which file is copied first and whether there are active transactions (user or system) at the time.
It's something where the attach will work 9 times and fail the 10th, which is why it's so hard to persuade people that it is not the correct way.
Yeah, we just had an attach from a non-clean shutdown. We were getting all kinds of NTSF errors. They re-installed SQL Server and the databases worked so they're happy. I repeatedly urged them to at least run CHECKDB, but don't know if they bothered after seeing the database was usable. I also told them to put in a new HD, but don't think they did that either.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
December 29, 2011 at 9:53 am
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Grant Fritchey (12/29/2011)
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Grant Fritchey (12/27/2011)
Based on the fact that we can't get people to run good sets of backups despite Umptymillion articles, blog posts, presentations, webcasts and screaming lightning talks, I don't think you're going to be giving away the secrets of the universe.You mean like this: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1227066-146-1.aspx
It's just creepy. Seriously creepy just how often this occurs. You keep thinking that people will learn but they never seem to without having a giant wall fall on them first.
Some don't learn even after having a wall fall on them. I recall someone from SQLTeam posted a corrupt DB problem every couple of weeks, all weird and nasty corruption, never had a backup once.
Maybe the wall fell on them too many times?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 29, 2011 at 9:55 am
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I don't have room on my machine either.Two words: External harddrive.
Seriously, I've had to do that once or twice.
I've done that too.
Once had the backups for the production database server going to a USB drive, too. Cheap, and it worked, but it was hardly "enterprise class".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
December 29, 2011 at 9:55 am
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I don't have room on my machine either.Two words: External harddrive.
Seriously, I've had to do that once or twice.
I can't even get them to buy that. : -(
I thought SQL Server files had to be on an internal drive unless they were on a SAN. I must be mis-remembering something.
Once upon a time that was the case. I have had to backup to external hard drive on occasion. I have gone to the extent of buying an external hard drive once or twice as well on my own dime to make sure we had the space.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 29, 2011 at 9:58 am
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
GSquared (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I suppose it doesn't help that sometimes re-attaching the database files works, like if you're re-installing SQL Server and just make sure the files are where they are expected.And they don't understand that that only works if the database had a clean shut-down.
It'll work with a non-clean shutdown too, providing the log file is intact. It will sometimes work with an online and in-use database too. Just depends which file is copied first and whether there are active transactions (user or system) at the time.
It's something where the attach will work 9 times and fail the 10th, which is why it's so hard to persuade people that it is not the correct way.
I've got a weird one right now that's kind of the opposite. I shut down two databases and detached them, but the files are showing as in-use and Windows won't let me move them. Weird.
I've had too many failures with databases that weren't shut down cleanly being unable to pick up from the files. Really dirty power, and unreliable UPSes, caused a lot of server crashes at one place. SAN or server would go down, lights would flicker all over the building, and I'd have to recover from backups. So I don't consider a non-clean shutdown a real resource. Guess I've just been the 1 in 10 too often on that point.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
December 29, 2011 at 10:04 am
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
GilaMonster (12/29/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (12/29/2011)
I don't have room on my machine either.Two words: External harddrive.
Seriously, I've had to do that once or twice.
I can't even get them to buy that. : -(
I thought SQL Server files had to be on an internal drive unless they were on a SAN. I must be mis-remembering something.
I've been using my external drive for testing. What I've found is that rebooting the machine can be problematic of SQL Server starts automatically. The drive isn't always available and you get corrupt databases. Not pretty. But as long as you're just talking a testing platform, it should be fine.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
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