September 27, 2011 at 7:59 am
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
September 27, 2011 at 8:20 am
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 27, 2011 at 8:29 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
September 27, 2011 at 8:40 am
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 27, 2011 at 8:48 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
I tend to agree with Stefan. I have seen companies abuse workers and work to unsafe conditions in the name of a few pennies per share, or more often, a few thousand $$ for the manager. Or a large bonus for an exec.
We have adequate laws, or I'd like to think we do, but we have very little monitoring, a poor way to investigate and high costs for potential suits.
Companies will abuse workers when they can. Workers will take advantage of companies and slack off. It's human nature, it's everywhere, but it's not everyone. I'd like to think most people would do the decent thing: treat people fairly, and work at a fair rate for a fair wage. It's the extremes that need reigning in, and this might be one, might not be. I wouldn't trust either side (Amazon or the employee or the reporter) to be accurate. We ought to have some other way of checking on this. I suspect the truth is in the middle, or fluctuating back and forth between a regular workplace and this extreme description.
September 27, 2011 at 8:50 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
I do not disagree that frequent checks are needed. Internally, this should be handled at the supervisory level. There is no business that is going to turn a blind eye on unsafe work conditions. If for some reason they do it is up the employee to report these conditions to either their supervisor or OSHA.
My initial point was that as a consumer I will assume that Amazon is in compliance with labor regulations, which includes providing a safe working environment.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
September 27, 2011 at 9:23 am
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
I do not disagree that frequent checks are needed. Internally, this should be handled at the supervisory level. There is no business that is going to turn a blind eye on unsafe work conditions. If for some reason they do it is up the employee to report these conditions to either their supervisor or OSHA.
My initial point was that as a consumer I will assume that Amazon is in compliance with labor regulations, which includes providing a safe working environment.
"There is no business that is going to turn a blind eye on unsafe work conditions"
If only that were the case. Sadly, this is proven wrong time and again just last year there was the coal mine explosion caused by managers telling workers to ignore safety regulations and the BP oil spill that was caused by the same thing. Those were just the two largest examples, I'm sure you can find plenty more with a cursory internet search.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 27, 2011 at 9:36 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
If you have any reason at all to assume otherwise, you need to contact relevant legal authorities.
If you do not have any reason to contact legal authorities on the issue, it's reasonable to assume that they are in compliance.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 27, 2011 at 9:37 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
You think Sean needs to perform frequent checks on Amazon's compliance with OSHA standards????
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 27, 2011 at 9:40 am
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
You think Sean needs to perform frequent checks on Amazon's compliance with OSHA standards????
No, I think there needs to be frequent government inspection to ensure compliance. This is a conclusion arrived at from a thorough study of history.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 27, 2011 at 9:42 am
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
If you have any reason at all to assume otherwise, you need to contact relevant legal authorities.
If you do not have any reason to contact legal authorities on the issue, it's reasonable to assume that they are in compliance.
I'm sorry, but that's just naieve. And as I said, it is unreasonable to assume anything either way.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 27, 2011 at 9:50 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
If you have any reason at all to assume otherwise, you need to contact relevant legal authorities.
If you do not have any reason to contact legal authorities on the issue, it's reasonable to assume that they are in compliance.
I'm sorry, but that's just naieve. And as I said, it is unreasonable to assume anything either way.
Again as consumer I take it on confidence that the company operates a legitimate business, this includes comliance with OSHA safety regulations. Otherwise any of the convenience of doing business with them is lost. I don't want to spend my time investigating each and every company before I make a purchase to ensure they are not treating their employees unfairly.
_______________________________________________________________
Need help? Help us help you.
Read the article at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for best practices on asking questions.
Need to split a string? Try Jeff Modens splitter http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Tally+Table/72993/.
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 1 – Converting Rows to Columns - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/T-SQL/63681/
Cross Tabs and Pivots, Part 2 - Dynamic Cross Tabs - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Crosstab/65048/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 1) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69953/
Understanding and Using APPLY (Part 2) - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/APPLY/69954/
September 27, 2011 at 9:52 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
If you have any reason at all to assume otherwise, you need to contact relevant legal authorities.
If you do not have any reason to contact legal authorities on the issue, it's reasonable to assume that they are in compliance.
I'm sorry, but that's just naieve. And as I said, it is unreasonable to assume anything either way.
So, you actually go and personally inspect Amazon's warehouses for OSHA violations, and do so frequently. And not just Amazon, but every company in the US? Or just the companies you do business with? When you travel, you inspect the gas stations to make sure they are in compliance with haz-mat regulations. When you eat out, you inspect their suppliers for compliance with food safety laws?
That's what you're claiming here. That YOU personally verify these things. Or, at the very least, that you consider it unreasonable to not do so.
Personally, I'll let Amazon employees report violations at Amazon worksites, and will assume that they are doing so if they give a darn about their own safety. I don't feel the need to drive out there and inspect the things myself.
Based on that decision and policy, I assume that any violations will be reported and handled, most likely without any personal intervention on my part.
I know that if I ran into situations I felt needed to be handled at the place where I work, I would certainly report them and/or handle them myself. I consider that reasonable.
But expecting Sean to personally verify that Amazon is a safe place to work? That's insane. But it's what you insisted he must do in order to be "reasonable".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 27, 2011 at 9:54 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
So does that mean that you assume they are not in compliance of keeping their workplace safe?
No, I mean it is dangerous to assume anything and frequent checks are needed. When people are under pressure to improve performance by a certain set of metrics, frequently shortcuts are taken that ignore other sets of metrics. Since management rarely has direct experience with the work being done, or is removed from it by time, the shortcuts can become dangerous.
I do not disagree that frequent checks are needed. Internally, this should be handled at the supervisory level. There is no business that is going to turn a blind eye on unsafe work conditions. If for some reason they do it is up the employee to report these conditions to either their supervisor or OSHA.
My initial point was that as a consumer I will assume that Amazon is in compliance with labor regulations, which includes providing a safe working environment.
"There is no business that is going to turn a blind eye on unsafe work conditions"
If only that were the case. Sadly, this is proven wrong time and again just last year there was the coal mine explosion caused by managers telling workers to ignore safety regulations and the BP oil spill that was caused by the same thing. Those were just the two largest examples, I'm sure you can find plenty more with a cursory internet search.
Both of these examples were accidents caused by a lapse in judgment and not the result of ongoing unsafe work conditions.
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September 27, 2011 at 10:07 am
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/27/2011)
GSquared (9/27/2011)
Sean Lange (9/26/2011)
/soapbox on...
/soapbox off
It's a pretty fair bet that some people would assume I'm a pretty rabid conservative. On the other hand, there are plenty who think I'm a radical liberal.
I disagree with the author of the article about a bunch of things, and am pretty sure it's "spun" (I'd use the word "lies", but it's not PC), but I would agree with Steve that unfettered materialism is just as much of a problem as total authoritarianism.
OK I admit I might have gone a bit overboard in my response but I also feel that the example were sensationalized to make a point. And that point is not one I agree with. I think extremism on either side is bad. That being said I don't think that I will stop shopping at Amazon any less because of this article. I don't think that companies owe their employees a comfortable work environment, that does not mean unsafe though. We have adequate laws in place to ensure the work place is not dangerous and I would assume that Amazon is in compliance.
I typically avoid online political discussion like the plague due the high frequency of rabid and nasty responses. This type of discussion it usually best over your favorite food/beverage.
"I would assume that Amazon is in compliance."
That is also dangerous.
If you have any reason at all to assume otherwise, you need to contact relevant legal authorities.
If you do not have any reason to contact legal authorities on the issue, it's reasonable to assume that they are in compliance.
I'm sorry, but that's just naieve. And as I said, it is unreasonable to assume anything either way.
So, you actually go and personally inspect Amazon's warehouses for OSHA violations, and do so frequently. And not just Amazon, but every company in the US? Or just the companies you do business with? When you travel, you inspect the gas stations to make sure they are in compliance with haz-mat regulations. When you eat out, you inspect their suppliers for compliance with food safety laws?
That's what you're claiming here. That YOU personally verify these things. Or, at the very least, that you consider it unreasonable to not do so.
Personally, I'll let Amazon employees report violations at Amazon worksites, and will assume that they are doing so if they give a darn about their own safety. I don't feel the need to drive out there and inspect the things myself.
Based on that decision and policy, I assume that any violations will be reported and handled, most likely without any personal intervention on my part.
I know that if I ran into situations I felt needed to be handled at the place where I work, I would certainly report them and/or handle them myself. I consider that reasonable.
But expecting Sean to personally verify that Amazon is a safe place to work? That's insane. But it's what you insisted he must do in order to be "reasonable".
Nope, that's not what I'm claiming. I'm stating that this is one of the responsibilities of government, inspection of workplaces for safety.
If you ran into that kind of situation and you'd been told you'd be fired if you reported it to anyone, perhaps not in those words, but it was made understood that's what would happen, would you still do it? And how about if you were just making enough to make ends meet and didn't have any kind of financial cushion and weren't likely to find another job quickly in this economy?
"But expecting Sean to personally verify that Amazon is a safe place to work? That's insane. But it's what you insisted he must do in order to be 'reasonable'."
Nope, that's not what I said at all, it is entirely assumptions you made. I don't "expect" Sean to do anything and I didn't "insist" he do anything. Nor did I say he had to be reasonable. All I said was that assuming is dangerous and that companies have a long history of ignoring workplace safety in search of extra profit.
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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