July 18, 2011 at 11:56 am
I would think you might find a niche marketing your skills in getting accidental DBA's up and running ON THEIR OWN SYSTEMS for a couple weeks. DBA gets real, on-the-job training, business gets the satisfaction of knowing it's being done right, you gets a check.
Much more one-on-one, couldn't do that with a crowd of people, but I would love something like that.
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
July 18, 2011 at 12:03 pm
SQLRNNR (7/18/2011)
bopeavy (7/18/2011)
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GSquared (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
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Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
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Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?
No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was.
I wouldn't count on an accidental DBA knowing that.
Heck, with the some of the questions I answer about log files, I'm pretty sure a huge percentage of the trained, experienced DBAs in the world haven't the faintest clue what log files are actually for.
Do the accidental DBA make more money? If so I want in!
Of course they do.
Is there a certification for being an accidental DBA by Microsoft?
July 18, 2011 at 12:10 pm
jcrawf02 (7/18/2011)
GSquared (7/18/2011)
jcrawf02 (7/15/2011)
Willingly? Sure. Without coercion? Not from the party receiving the payment, but coerced nonetheless by the need for protectionI can't really call that coercion. As well say that paying for water to drink is coerced, because human biology otherwise threatens you with death. Having shelter is coerced because otherwise the laws of physics will use weather and solar phenomena to kill you.
More directly, if a group wanted to live together, and some of them specialized in food production, and others in engineering/mechanics, others in manufacture, etc., and one of the specialties needed was combat, for defense against foreign agressors, and they got paid for said defense, and performed that duty to the best of their ability, I wouldn't call that coercion, in this context of law vs social contract. It's a difference in intent and means, not just in end result.
Coercion is inherent in anything enforced by law. Anyone demanding a paycheck for work is using coercion, in that there's an implicit, "pay me or I'll sue you, and use the armed government to enforce it!" Again, this is the result of overuse of law in human interraction. Minimum wage laws, etc., are all implicit/explicit threats. Is this necessary in some interractions? Unfortunately yes, because we live in a world where criminals and the insane hold disproportionate power in our societies.
I hate disagreeing with you, because I have this nasty feeling that it points out a flaw in my logic somewhere, but I can't see the difference.
"As well say that paying for water to drink is coerced, because human biology otherwise threatens you with death. "
Wouldn't we call it coerced if the price were exorbitant? Or that the holder of water was 'forcing' those without to suffer?
Anyway, point sorta taken, I'll keep thinking about it.
Per http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+coercion&qpvt=definition%3a+coersion&FORM=DTPDIA
Coercion: "forcing of somebody to do something: the use of force or threats to make somebody do something against his or her will"
Most people are perfectly willing to eat, drink, and live in a protective structure.
Examples might help:
Imagine a group living on a desert island. One knows how to grow a garden (and oddly enough, has seeds and a trowel), one knows how to fish (brought his hook and line with him on the SS Minnow), one knows how to distill potable water out of the seawater all around them (but not how to build a shortwave radio), and one knows how to make clothing and shelter out of palm fronds. None of them are smart enough to use the satelite phone and GPS from the boat to get themselves rescued.
With coercion: The fisherman and gardener team up, and tell the water-guy and palm-fronds-expert that they'll make sure those two starve to death if they don't perform services X, Y, and Z for them. If the water expert tries to get his own food, they beat him up and tell him they'll kill him next time he tries it.
Without coercion: Fisherman fishes, and trades some of the catch for veggies, palm-frond suits, and drinking water. Gardener grows veggies, and trades some of those for fish (protein is probably lacking from the veggies), drinkable water, and a palm-frond hut next to his garden. And so on.
In both cases, they are all threated by death if they don't have access to shelter from storms, water to drink, and food to eat. In the coercion example, there is also the threat of death for trying to break the food monopoly, which threat doesn't exist in the coercion-free version.
Note that either of these economies could be either communist or free market, depending the desires and ambitions of the people involved. The difference is one has "laws", in terms of "grow your own food and we'll arrest you", while the other has mutual agreements/social contracts instead. Both may, over time, develop traditions that may have more social power than laws, and so on. That will depend on how many seasons this is renewed for, and whether the show is "adult" enough to include the creation of a second (and succeeding) generation (assuming the standard mix of attractive female cast, attractive male cast, and nerdy/old/whatever male cast).
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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July 18, 2011 at 12:12 pm
bopeavy (7/18/2011)
SQLRNNR (7/18/2011)
bopeavy (7/18/2011)
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GSquared (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
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Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?
No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was.
I wouldn't count on an accidental DBA knowing that.
Heck, with the some of the questions I answer about log files, I'm pretty sure a huge percentage of the trained, experienced DBAs in the world haven't the faintest clue what log files are actually for.
Do the accidental DBA make more money? If so I want in!
Of course they do.
Is there a certification for being an accidental DBA by Microsoft?
Yes. It's called the "End User License Agreement for Microsoft Office Access". :w00t:
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 18, 2011 at 12:18 pm
GSquared (7/18/2011)
bopeavy (7/18/2011)
SQLRNNR (7/18/2011)
bopeavy (7/18/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GSquared (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?
No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was.
I wouldn't count on an accidental DBA knowing that.
Heck, with the some of the questions I answer about log files, I'm pretty sure a huge percentage of the trained, experienced DBAs in the world haven't the faintest clue what log files are actually for.
Do the accidental DBA make more money? If so I want in!
Of course they do.
Is there a certification for being an accidental DBA by Microsoft?
Yes. It's called the "End User License Agreement for Microsoft Office Access". :w00t:
I thought it was Excel¿
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
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SQL RNNR
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Learn Extended Events
July 18, 2011 at 12:18 pm
I like the direction this Accidental Training is headed. I've created a relationship with a local company that will eventually have me providing 1-hour training sessions about every two weeks. I've been 100% technical for 11 years, and I'm surprised at how fun teaching is. I created a syllabus for them that covers 25 sessions, but carving out time to create the presentations has been a bear. I would certainly be willing to share what I have developed so that it could get some good peer review, and if someone else was willing to share some of their work, it would take a load off my shoulders.
I haven't tried to market it at all yet, so I'm not sure if there will be more demand - this opportunity just kind of fell out of the sky and landed in my lap. After I have a reasonable set of the presentations ready, I'm planning on seeing if there is more interest but I don't want it get too big before I am able to handle it. I think it would be possible to market full or half-day training sessions, but for this one company in particular, a slow steady pace fit in with the continuing education goals they had. I envision that it would be possible to do both - create 1-hour sessions that could also be combined into a 1/2 or full day session and that would provide a lot of flexibility when approaching a prospect.
Thanks,
Chad
July 18, 2011 at 12:32 pm
GilaMonster (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
most accidental DBA's can't get a company to give them 2 weeks paid training leave.Most companies won't give a 2 day's paid training leave if it's not an official course with a nice certificate and a certification promised. Many not even then
I offer semi-custom courses, currently a DB admin and a performance tuning. Both are 2x4 hours. I have virtually 0 interest in them, I haven't even (in 3 years) recouped the cost of writing the training material.
Note to self: Do not try to market in South Africa. They don't want to be trained. :hehe:
As to the comments on certs, my thoughts, business-wise, would be to certify them. But it wouldn't be an official MS one and thus would rely on a reputation that the company wouldn't have yet. I'm thinking a grading of the practical that people actually fail (my gods! In this day and age?!). As mentioned though, getting the time is probably the most difficult part.
Gus, I agree with you that the proper marketing and convincing is necessary for business owners to see the value in this for their employees. As much as I wouldn't turn down a person deciding to come on their own, I don't see them as the customers. I see businesses as such, and would market it appropriately.
In other news, I'm still working on what I think of as the 'need to have' part of core training. I'm also trying to organize it in what I see as the most effective way of knowledge building blocks. Obviously you need to introduce new ideas, but I'm trying to see if I can organize it so that it's a path instead of just information.
I probably won't have that actually put together until the end of the week though, life's a little nutty.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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July 18, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Craig Farrell (7/18/2011)
Note to self: Do not try to market in South Africa. They don't want to be trained. :hehe:
We have a very odd culture around value of training and experience. Am not even going to try and explain it....
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 18, 2011 at 12:45 pm
GilaMonster (7/18/2011)
Craig Farrell (7/18/2011)
Note to self: Do not try to market in South Africa. They don't want to be trained. :hehe:We have a very odd culture around value of training and experience. Am not even going to try and explain it....
I think it goes beyond being explainable. If you can't just grok it, forget it. I've had various SA natives try to explain a lot of the attitudes and culture to me. Used to work with a couple of dozen people from Jo'burg and surrounding areas. Do people there still claim Afrikaans is "the original Dutch" and what they speak in Europe is "fake"? Had that conversation more than once.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
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July 18, 2011 at 12:55 pm
GSquared (7/18/2011)
GilaMonster (7/18/2011)
Craig Farrell (7/18/2011)
Note to self: Do not try to market in South Africa. They don't want to be trained. :hehe:We have a very odd culture around value of training and experience. Am not even going to try and explain it....
I think it goes beyond being explainable. If you can't just grok it, forget it. I've had various SA natives try to explain a lot of the attitudes and culture to me. Used to work with a couple of dozen people from Jo'burg and surrounding areas.
You at least have some idea of it then, I'm not sure I understand fully...
Do people there still claim Afrikaans is "the original Dutch" and what they speak in Europe is "fake"? Had that conversation more than once.
Lol. Never heard that one, but then I don't hang out much with Afrikaaners. No way is Afrikaans the original anything. It's 16th century dutch mixed with french, english and a few of the indigenous languages and left to stew mostly in isolation for a couple hundred years. Amazingly enough it's similar enough to modern dutch that I could understand and be understood in Amsterdam, at least for simpler things.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 18, 2011 at 1:56 pm
I've had two different people from South Africa try to convince me that Afrikaans is "more original". They didn't seem to be trying to pull my leg, but you never know. I gave a similar answer to yours, but also included the sarcastic, "You mean just like Quebeqois is 'original French' and what they speak in France is a poluted, degraded version?"
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 18, 2011 at 2:01 pm
GSquared (7/18/2011)
I've had two different people from South Africa try to convince me that Afrikaans is "more original". They didn't seem to be trying to pull my leg, but you never know. I gave a similar answer to yours, but also included the sarcastic, "You mean just like Quebeqois is 'original French' and what they speak in France is a poluted, degraded version?"
Well, the Spanish in Mexico is now the "official" Spanish.
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July 18, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (7/18/2011)
GSquared (7/18/2011)
I've had two different people from South Africa try to convince me that Afrikaans is "more original". They didn't seem to be trying to pull my leg, but you never know. I gave a similar answer to yours, but also included the sarcastic, "You mean just like Quebeqois is 'original French' and what they speak in France is a poluted, degraded version?"Well, the Spanish in Mexico is now the "official" Spanish.
Professor 'Iggins will have a conniption, but that makes American the "more original English"!
Yeah, it's a silly statement. That's why I asked Gail if it was a common idea over there, vs just a few crackpots/pranksters I've run into.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 18, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Craig Farrell (7/18/2011)
GilaMonster (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
most accidental DBA's can't get a company to give them 2 weeks paid training leave.Most companies won't give a 2 day's paid training leave if it's not an official course with a nice certificate and a certification promised. Many not even then
I offer semi-custom courses, currently a DB admin and a performance tuning. Both are 2x4 hours. I have virtually 0 interest in them, I haven't even (in 3 years) recouped the cost of writing the training material.
Note to self: Do not try to market in South Africa. They don't want to be trained. :hehe:
As to the comments on certs, my thoughts, business-wise, would be to certify them. But it wouldn't be an official MS one and thus would rely on a reputation that the company wouldn't have yet. I'm thinking a grading of the practical that people actually fail (my gods! In this day and age?!). As mentioned though, getting the time is probably the most difficult part.
Gus, I agree with you that the proper marketing and convincing is necessary for business owners to see the value in this for their employees. As much as I wouldn't turn down a person deciding to come on their own, I don't see them as the customers. I see businesses as such, and would market it appropriately.
In other news, I'm still working on what I think of as the 'need to have' part of core training. I'm also trying to organize it in what I see as the most effective way of knowledge building blocks. Obviously you need to introduce new ideas, but I'm trying to see if I can organize it so that it's a path instead of just information.
I probably won't have that actually put together until the end of the week though, life's a little nutty.
It think it would be best to have a menu of training options. Basically, since I agree that 2 full weeks is going to be hard to sell (after all, the company is not hiring a qualified DBA for a reason - because they think the misc. IT dude can do it mostly). So I think there should be a 2 or 3 day 'core' path, plus a few add-on day 'packs'. Maybe a total of 5 or 7 mix-n-match options, all starting with the base, and the supreme package being all of the courses and taking the 2 weeks. This would also allow them to possibly split this up a little. Basics this week for 3 days, then 2 days back at work, another 2 day add-on next week, with 3 days at work, and so on. I think this option would be more palatable to businesses. Again, we can just as easily sell it as a 2 week 'getting completely started' course if we wanted, but it would also allow us to divide it as needed.
As for organizing the material, you are right Craig. It needs to be delivered in a way that reveals the right amount of depth IN TIME. Can't blast a new one with what the Gathering Streams operator does. The first need to know the super-basics of what parallelism is. I'm talking basically - like Paul's gumdrops illustration and without much more detail. Then, we reveal more detail a little later (with examples and demos), then still later, when discussing Query exec plans, they see the operator and we tell them how Gathering Streams works - this being the most technical, but 3rd or 4th time they heard the concept.
So, I think the best way to teach this stuff is with repetition. Not repetition of the same thing repeated a few times in teh same hour, then mostly forgotten and revisted waaaayyyy later. No, a thread should be weaved and the point hit over and over on different days. Kind of allowing their mind to wrap around the concept first, sans tech jargon, and slowly get more technical in time. Sounds obvious, but most folks don't teach this way I don't think. So I think we should teach in a horizontal fashion, not vertical. We should teach them EVERYTHING about a tlog in one sitting and test them on it. Then move on to other topics. I think we should cover many topics basically, then go back and cover them in a little more detail, then again in more detail adding some HA (concept only), then more detail for everything, mid-range on HA and beginning on Query Tuning. My order is not right here, it's just an example to explain what I mean.
The repetition will actually help those synapses snap the right way after they leave. Also, they'll get real hands-on do-as-I-do experience (making the teaching slower than a presentation style since it ensures folks don't just "see" it and walk away THINKING they can do it, but they actually "do" it.
Craig - this is one reason why my email to you started with hardware. I wasn't covering everything about a CPU, just the basic function of how it works and how it is different from RAM. All this needs a little deeper explaining later and then ultimately, it is clear when explaining parallelism and the buffer cache and PageIOLatch* waits and what exactly is happening in the engine while that wait is counting away.
Jim Murphy
http://www.sqlwatchmen.com
@SQLMurph
July 19, 2011 at 1:00 am
Might be useful to summarise today's/yesterday's Dilbert (with credit to Scott Adams):
Dilbert: "This class will make me more efficient."
PHB: "I don't want you to be more efficient. You're working on a government contract and billing by the hour."
But I also wonder, are they really "Accidental DBAs" or "Coerced DBAs"?
Steve.
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