July 17, 2011 at 10:20 pm
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was. 😉
Two posts at once.
I agree a reputation takes time to earn, and in this case reputation would trump all. Can't get said reputation though until you dive in, so, well, one thing at a time.
Most accidental DBAs I've seen think the log file is an annoyance best left in the nether regions of a dusty SAN. But yes, even those who come with bad ideas should learn the correct information, at least to my mind. Everywhere I went on the web was half-hearted efforts to educate the beginners, but nothing coherent, nothing effective enough to give the ground rules necessary to learn the next steps from.
Sure, there are tomes out there I can recommend, but even some of them get too detailed in some places and end up missing key pieces, expecting the true basics to either be known or learnable elsewhere... which is true, if you already knew what you were looking for.
If I seem like I've got a major bit in my teeth on this one, it's probably because it's true. I remember when I started in this industry and it was like trying to learn the hidden rules of the Masons. You couldn't even learn the lingo, because you didn't really know what was the basics vs. the advanced stuff. I cut my teeth on MSAccess, and the first project in SQL Server I did was extracting security and schema rules from system tables to build my own replication mechanics. Talk about doing it backwards... and what's this index crap? Execution wha? Repli-whosihuh?
All the disjointed components and trainings out there make it hard to figure out what you're really supposed to start with to be effective, instead of running around blind with your very sharpened axe with a nearly broken hilt in a playground.
So, sorry if I seem a bit aggressive on this one. I'm gnawing on the bone at the moment trying to find the marrow.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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July 18, 2011 at 3:11 am
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
Ummm... isn't MCM only two weeks long?
The MCM is 2 exams, no training component. The chance of passing without finding some suitable training however....
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 18, 2011 at 3:15 am
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
most accidental DBA's can't get a company to give them 2 weeks paid training leave.
Most companies won't give a 2 day's paid training leave if it's not an official course with a nice certificate and a certification promised. Many not even then
I offer semi-custom courses, currently a DB admin and a performance tuning. Both are 2x4 hours. I have virtually 0 interest in them, I haven't even (in 3 years) recouped the cost of writing the training material.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 18, 2011 at 5:14 am
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
Brandie Tarvin (7/15/2011)
The best training I've come across is offered by Four Deuce (http://www.fourdeuce.com/training/publicclasses.aspx).Brandie, my apologies, I didn't mean to completely skip this, and somehow I did. I reviewed the site, and it would appear they have no upcoming scheduled classes. They may still be doing custom work but it would appear that primarily it is just a video series.
They're probably revamping their coursework for Denali. As of last year, at least, they were doing real, in-person, courses.
July 18, 2011 at 8:12 am
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was. 😉
Not sure what Craig is looking for - training, or skills evaluation.
You might gain a lot of insight just based on some simple 'hands on' sample scenarios, and seeing how poeple solve them.
Tells you both what they know, and how they approach the unknown.
Beyond a day or two, most companies would expect some kind of cert.
And might be real reluctant to pay for the true basics.
Even giving someone a book, then a surprise test on some of the content a couple weeks later, could be very revealing.
Is the person a self starter?
Do they show potential in solving something 'similar' in nature to what was demonstrated in a chapter?
After all, a big part of success in this field is applying concepts to real life problems.
July 18, 2011 at 11:01 am
The Dixie Flatline (7/15/2011)
As Per Vegas - you would miss me. I don't live there anymore.
Whups, sorry Jason. :blink:
You must have moved when I was absent from the Thread. Where do you hang your hat now?
Back in Utah
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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July 18, 2011 at 11:09 am
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
I was referring to a special cert that some of the folks on this thread know about. It was valiant effort.
I recall it well. I think a lot of wind went out of the sail when MS decided to lower the cost and no longer require the 3 week on MS campus intensive training that goes with it. Whether true or not, I think that effort fell upon some ears and it did some good. Granted it still doesn't bridge the gap between MCITP and MCM. Almost done with MCITP for both Admin and Dev and am more entrenched in thinking that the gap between MCITP and MCM is toooooooo big.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 18, 2011 at 11:27 am
jcrawf02 (7/15/2011)
Willingly? Sure. Without coercion? Not from the party receiving the payment, but coerced nonetheless by the need for protection
I can't really call that coercion. As well say that paying for water to drink is coerced, because human biology otherwise threatens you with death. Having shelter is coerced because otherwise the laws of physics will use weather and solar phenomena to kill you.
More directly, if a group wanted to live together, and some of them specialized in food production, and others in engineering/mechanics, others in manufacture, etc., and one of the specialties needed was combat, for defense against foreign agressors, and they got paid for said defense, and performed that duty to the best of their ability, I wouldn't call that coercion, in this context of law vs social contract. It's a difference in intent and means, not just in end result.
Coercion is inherent in anything enforced by law. Anyone demanding a paycheck for work is using coercion, in that there's an implicit, "pay me or I'll sue you, and use the armed government to enforce it!" Again, this is the result of overuse of law in human interraction. Minimum wage laws, etc., are all implicit/explicit threats. Is this necessary in some interractions? Unfortunately yes, because we live in a world where criminals and the insane hold disproportionate power in our societies.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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July 18, 2011 at 11:31 am
GilaMonster (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
Ummm... isn't MCM only two weeks long?The MCM is 2 exams, no training component. The chance of passing without finding some suitable training however....
Wasn't there a 2 week MCM bootcamp that cost something like $18K a while back?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 18, 2011 at 11:33 am
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was. 😉
I wouldn't count on an accidental DBA knowing that.
Heck, with the some of the questions I answer about log files, I'm pretty sure a huge percentage of the trained, experienced DBAs in the world haven't the faintest clue what log files are actually for.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 18, 2011 at 11:42 am
Jeff Moden (7/18/2011)
GilaMonster (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
Ummm... isn't MCM only two weeks long?The MCM is 2 exams, no training component. The chance of passing without finding some suitable training however....
Wasn't there a 2 week MCM bootcamp that cost something like $18K a while back?
That was before the cert was restructured. At that time it was 3 weeks of course + exams in one (with tests at the end of each week). Potential candidates had to apply and submit their existing credentials and experience and could be rejected.
It's now just 2 exams that you can just go and write. Makes it a lot more accessible, but puts the arranging of some form of training into the candidate's hands.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 18, 2011 at 11:43 am
GSquared (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?
No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was.
I wouldn't count on an accidental DBA knowing that.
Heck, with the some of the questions I answer about log files, I'm pretty sure a huge percentage of the trained, experienced DBAs in the world haven't the faintest clue what log files are actually for.
Do the accidental DBA make more money? If so I want in!
July 18, 2011 at 11:48 am
bopeavy (7/18/2011)
GSquared (7/18/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Farrell (7/17/2011)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you honestly think in 8 hours of training you can get a from scratch IT employee to a working (Junior) DBA?
No... of course not. But I thought we were talking about "accidental DBA's" who at least knew what the difference between a Backup file and a Log file was.
I wouldn't count on an accidental DBA knowing that.
Heck, with the some of the questions I answer about log files, I'm pretty sure a huge percentage of the trained, experienced DBAs in the world haven't the faintest clue what log files are actually for.
Do the accidental DBA make more money? If so I want in!
Of course they do.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 18, 2011 at 11:53 am
GSquared (7/18/2011)
jcrawf02 (7/15/2011)
Willingly? Sure. Without coercion? Not from the party receiving the payment, but coerced nonetheless by the need for protectionI can't really call that coercion. As well say that paying for water to drink is coerced, because human biology otherwise threatens you with death. Having shelter is coerced because otherwise the laws of physics will use weather and solar phenomena to kill you.
More directly, if a group wanted to live together, and some of them specialized in food production, and others in engineering/mechanics, others in manufacture, etc., and one of the specialties needed was combat, for defense against foreign agressors, and they got paid for said defense, and performed that duty to the best of their ability, I wouldn't call that coercion, in this context of law vs social contract. It's a difference in intent and means, not just in end result.
Coercion is inherent in anything enforced by law. Anyone demanding a paycheck for work is using coercion, in that there's an implicit, "pay me or I'll sue you, and use the armed government to enforce it!" Again, this is the result of overuse of law in human interraction. Minimum wage laws, etc., are all implicit/explicit threats. Is this necessary in some interractions? Unfortunately yes, because we live in a world where criminals and the insane hold disproportionate power in our societies.
I hate disagreeing with you, because I have this nasty feeling that it points out a flaw in my logic somewhere, but I can't see the difference.
"As well say that paying for water to drink is coerced, because human biology otherwise threatens you with death. "
Wouldn't we call it coerced if the price were exorbitant? Or that the holder of water was 'forcing' those without to suffer?
Anyway, point sorta taken, I'll keep thinking about it.
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July 18, 2011 at 11:53 am
On the "Accidental Training" thing (trademark that!), there's no reason you couldn't offer a cert at the end. Make it clear that the cert is based on, "peer review by experienced DBAs on the subject of practical matters related to administering, building, and coding in SQL Server databases". It's not some faceless corporation saying, "this person answered a series of multiple-choice questions correctly" (or similar certification methods). It's YOUR rep on the line, because you are personally saying "this guy knows how to manage database backups", or whatever subject you're teaching.
If you can't sell that to small businesses, you just need better marketing and salespeople. Selling businesses on services is all about "what's in it for us?" Simply put, you market to the businesspeople, not the accidental DBA. A little FUD about "nice database server there ... shame if something were to happen to it and you lost ALL YOUR DATA FOREVER", might be all you need. More positive bits could easily be put together that would focus on, "Your neighbor's kid might be able to put together a simple webpage, but can you trust him with the data your business relies on?" Joke about "Joe's good with computers, he can be the DBA", and the results of that if Joe doesn't get some INEXPENSIVE, PROVEN EFFECTIVE (trademark that!, and use larger fonts in the marketing material) training.
Honestly, there are a zillion businesses out there that could benefit from moving to SQL Express from Access/Excel, but they probably think it's expensive and difficult. Market training them for that transition, and you've probably got a viable business just doing that.
Do the training in 1-day sprints. Backups and restores for a day. Normalization for a day. And so on. Make it cheap. Offer coupons that pretty much eliminate the price for new customers. Get a turncoat deal for people who want more advanced training being refered to good programs for that if you can't offer the training yourself.
It'll take real work, but it could certainly be done.
Of course, if you make it take off and go into orbit, it'll be regulated into irrelevance in a few years. But those could be a good few years. Just takes the right marketing and salesmanship.
Whatever the program ends up being, it just needs to be something you can put some passion behind. If you can, you'll hit the right "wavelength" with the right business owners, and it'll go from there. Small business owners are, generally, passionate about their business, and they respond positively to similar enthusiasm. (Hence the failure of most written marketing, since exuberance loses a lot of impact without body language and tone of voice, except in the hands of really skilled copywriters.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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