March 18, 2009 at 7:26 am
I think all of you has made some progress with Fox. He actually gave the Table structure?? Wow. I am impressed with all of your patience..
-Roy
March 18, 2009 at 7:48 am
Roy Ernest (3/18/2009)
Grant Fritchey (3/18/2009)
I'm going to hell for this one, I just know it.I was checking up on the status of what I think is a bug that I posted to Connect (Disabling TDE if you're interested) When I saw... well... wouldn't it be cool if
https://connect.microsoft.com/SQLServer/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=424191
So he got the same response there like he got here.... He must be disappointed...:hehe:
Ignoring the fact that he keeps wanting to use cursors and loops for inserts and updates when he should be looking for set-based solutions, I've just added a comment on Connect explaining why I think using C# syntax for T-SQL is a fundamentally bad idea!
Basically, the only places I've seen where it's useful to be able to switch languages is when there are different capabilities being used (e.g. assembly code mixed with C). As far as I can tell, he just wants syntactic sugar, which I feel might have a detrimental effect as you might assume other language features were present when it's all just smoke and mirrors.
Derek
March 18, 2009 at 8:05 am
Grant Fritchey (3/18/2009)
I'm going to hell for this one, I just know it.
Nah. The dev team need their daily laugh too.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 18, 2009 at 11:17 am
Just wanted to pass this on to those who may be interested, looks like foxjazz may be more a Vader type than an Emperor type. We may finally be making some progress on his T-SQL Rant.
March 18, 2009 at 11:30 am
I was just coming here to post the same thing, Lynn. Although not a Jedi yet, it may be that he has turned from the Dark Side. I was as pleased as you were to see him apologize. IT appears that he finally realized he doesn't know it all, and is listening. Quite possibly a life-changing experience for him.
I had to warn him that the intense on-on-one he is getting can't last, but at the moment I'm glad we are rewarding his change of attitude by responding positively to him. Still, I can imagine him tearing his hair when I told him that "There is no problem." I was tempted to say "There is no spoon."
We all have to be careful not to throw too much at him too fast. He still hasn't done his pop quiz assignment for me. But I honestly believe his problems right now aren't stubborness, he is just struggling to unlearn the whole conceptual framework he was working under.
Do you wonder whether he is self taught, or had some Oracle background? (His dba wife!? He said she said that cursors versus set based depended on the database.) He got off to SUCH a wrong start with SQL Server, I can understand why he started the rant now.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
March 18, 2009 at 11:53 am
I would have to agree, self-taught or mentored by someone with a strong Oracle background. I can only go on that based on others who have commented regarding Oracle.
What you are experiencing with foxjazz is the reason I keep trying when others give up. I do like how you went into the detailed explaination on converting his one "problem" from cursor based to set based even after I posted my code. That, I think may have been a turning point as well.
If he took the time to read it and look at my second code post, I think he would have seen the process pretty clearly.
I think what may also help is if we can keep the noise down. Going off on formatting, which happened for a bit, may distract him and the process.
March 18, 2009 at 11:59 am
I am reading the posts there in the rant. You all changed him. That is really something. Maybe he will turn out to like SQL more now and would become an expert soon. Only thing I can think of that would put him away is that everyone is coding pretty high standard querioes that might be over his head. Maybe when someone posts something, they could also explain what and why it is being done like that, he might grasp it more easily.
Lynn... You are patient.. Saint is the right nick for you.:-) I think Bob is getting there with his patience. Commendable.... Almost everyone is giving a helping hand.:-D
Edit was to add the last sentence. I posted it a bit premature..
-Roy
March 18, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I suspect he may be an application developer who's had to start using data in SQL server. As mentioned, someone who uses Oracle (which I gather used to do a lot with cursors almost more efficiently than its set-based code) has told him about cursors and he's worked out how to write them in T-SQL. He's then used them a lot and decided he knows a lot about T-SQL. Now he's surprised (and a little overwhelmed?) at how much can be done avoiding cursors.
I recall some code I wrote a few years ago which moved data from one set of tables to another which used lots of nested cursors. Fortunately it was a one-off transfer, but I'd dread to look at it today.
The other thread of his argument, i.e. that T-SQL syntax should be more like C#, just indicates that he probably hasn't used many languages/dialects (yet :-)).
From one of his posts, I gather his server may be down, so it may be hard for him to take in what we're telling him, especially as he seems to be getting (as you put it) firehosed!
My problem is that I beleive he uses SS2K and I have SS2K5, so I'm trying to avoid giving him a solution which won't work when he tries it. Maybe I should create a test db with compatibility level 80?
Derek
March 18, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Lynn, I didn't mean for my explanation to come over the top of your code. I just took a while to think about it and type it up. I forgot to check what was going on in the meanwhile.
I don't know what it was about Fox, that made ME turn away from the Dark Side. Obviously I enjoy pounding on flamers as much as the next guy (see quote #2 below). But something he said at some point told me "This poor kid really doesn't get it... he is doing everything the hard way... he can't understand what we are trying to tell him."
Roy and Derek thanks. Both for the encouragement and for the participation.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
March 18, 2009 at 12:11 pm
My usual thing with people like foxyjazz is to try to shock them a bit. Like my comment about skateboarders wiping out. Tends to wake them up. Also tends to make me the bad guy they absolutely don't want anything to do with, but lets others be the good guy and help them. One of the very cool things about this site is that I can count on others picking up the debris I sometimes leave behind. 🙂
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 18, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Greetings all. Admitedly, reading "the rant" lead me to this thread, and at the risk of seeming to barge in on a club of which I am not a member, I just felt compelled to thank you all for the help you have given me over the past year or maybe two. I am one of those people who knew how to use Access a little bit, so was reluctantly volunteered to take it to SQL Server, without even knowing what that was. In a desperate search for help, I found the Belutions SQL forum, which is now defunct, and there Jeff suggested I try here. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the un-paralleled willingness to help us foundlings, and I have since grown to love SQL, and at least trying to help those even less knowledgable than myself(although those cases are rare). So, I will leave with a simple "thank you" to you all.
Greg
Greg
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The glass is at one half capacity: nothing more, nothing less.
March 18, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Hey Greg. Welcome to "The Thread". I don't remember a No Trespassing sign, so feel free to jump on in and tell us whether the water is okay or not. 🙂
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 18, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Bob Hovious (3/18/2009)
Lynn, I didn't mean for my explanation to come over the top of your code. I just took a while to think about it and type it up. I forgot to check what was going on in the meanwhile.I don't know what it was about Fox, that made ME turn away from the Dark Side. Obviously I enjoy pounding on flamers as much as the next guy (see quote #2 below). But something he said at some point told me "This poor kid really doesn't get it... he is doing everything the hard way... he can't understand what we are trying to tell him."
Roy and Derek thanks. Both for the encouragement and for the participation.
Bob, don't take my comment wrong. Your post was made at the right time. It is probably something I should have done with my second piece of code. Your explaination and my code together I think really help illustrate the change in thinking needed to convert from cursors to set based processing.
March 18, 2009 at 12:39 pm
There is no offsides rule. Put a rugger up in front and he'll drag and last defender along with him.
March 18, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I have since grown to love SQL, and at least trying to help those even less knowledgable than myself
Those are the only qualifications I have, Greg. Welcome to the club.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
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