February 12, 2011 at 4:06 pm
GilaMonster (2/12/2011)
george sibbald (2/12/2011)
I have probably done it myself without realising it in the distant past, most likely to Gail 🙂Nah, you and I tend to post within seconds of each other with similar answers.
but I am always a few seconds after you 'cos you type faster...
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February 12, 2011 at 6:43 pm
george sibbald (2/12/2011)
GilaMonster (2/12/2011)
george sibbald (2/12/2011)
I have probably done it myself without realising it in the distant past, most likely to Gail 🙂Nah, you and I tend to post within seconds of each other with similar answers.
but I am always a few seconds after you 'cos you type faster...
It's not the typing speed, she just reasons too quickly.
Tom
February 12, 2011 at 6:48 pm
Craig Farrell (2/12/2011)
Oh, I realize your argument, Jeff, and it is what I originally did. However, your statement can go both ways. Do you simply ignore a problem or do you address it?I just wanted to make sure noone here was still trying to salvage the situation with him in this case.
I saw his latest response (to your attempt to start a serious discussion) and just cut loose. His suggestion that you were in the same league of arrogance as he - well, that and other things were just too much. I hope I haven't queered your attempt to get into a sensible exchange with him (I'm pretty sure it was a forlorn hope anyway, so not too worried). I guess I should steer away and stay away now.
Tom
February 12, 2011 at 7:28 pm
I think it's time for all of us to just abandon that thread to MasterBlaster.
I'm not going back any more.
February 13, 2011 at 3:21 am
Tom.Thomson (2/12/2011)
Craig Farrell (2/12/2011)
Oh, I realize your argument, Jeff, and it is what I originally did. However, your statement can go both ways. Do you simply ignore a problem or do you address it?I just wanted to make sure noone here was still trying to salvage the situation with him in this case.
I saw his latest response (to your attempt to start a serious discussion) and just cut loose. His suggestion that you were in the same league of arrogance as he - well, that and other things were just too much. I hope I haven't queered your attempt to get into a sensible exchange with him (I'm pretty sure it was a forlorn hope anyway, so not too worried). I guess I should steer away and stay away now.
Don't worry, Tom, I think you're safe.
I am in the same league of arrogance as him, though, I've just learned a few lessons he hasn't yet via the school of hard knocks. I appreciate the compliment, however. It means I've learned to shut that little gremlin of mine up more often. 🙂
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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February 13, 2011 at 8:24 am
I said I'd stay out of MasterBlasters thread, and I will. What he doesn't seem to get is that there was a better way to respond to Gus's comment without getting personal, which is what I took offense to and call insulting.
All he had to do was say something like this: That's three possibilities, but couldn't this, that, or another thing have also been a possibilty?
That would have been much better and without any personal attack.
Just a thought if someone else would like to see how he'd take that type of constructive critisism.
February 13, 2011 at 8:43 am
Tom.Thomson (2/12/2011)
Koen Verbeeck (2/12/2011)
The Dixie Flatline (2/11/2011)
QA is where some developers send their code to see if it works correctly or not. Often they do this without verifying that it works in their development environment. After all, they are developers, not testers.... right?A developer should of course test if his code does what it is supposed to do and if it compiles et cetera, but in my opinion, extensive testing should not be done by the person who wrote the code, but by someone else. A developer might think his code is perfect, so why bother testing, right?
Quite a frightening idea!
You seem to be saying that developers should do minimal unit testing and no more. The idea horrifies me. When developers are not required to show that their code really does its job (which is a good deal more than compile correctly and work in the development environment) they tend to lose the sense that it must work, QA raising issues that don't turn up in the dev environment is seen as a pain , a nuisance, and product quality goes to pot.
Developers should, in my view, do exhaustive testing of their code: unit testing, system testing, and stress testing (often that means that developers have to work together to put together the tests; fine, that happens because they had to work together to build the system so why should it be a problem to work together on testing too?). That includes performance measurement, checking what happens when someone pulls the plug on part of the equipment, feeding in garbage at the UI to make sure its rejected with suitable warnings, measuring scalability, and checking system limits. For the purposes of this testing DBAs have to be treated as part of the development test team. Adequate equipment has to be provided to allow proper tests to be carried out. Full test reports of unit tests, system tests, resilience tests, invalid input tests, and stress tests should be generated and given to QA along with the software, installation instructions, user documentation, and configuration guide.
QA should be a verification/validation stage after the product has been signed off by development as fit for release - and if QA decide it isn't fit that should be regarded as a major development failure. QA should grill development about system limits, about performace expectations, and everything else, document the answers, and check that everything fits, not just check that code delivers the functional specifications (unless you include performace, resilience, scalability, system limits, and everything else in the functional specification).
I've worked in places where developers did proper testing, and in places where they didn't; I know which ones produced better code and maintained better morale amongst developers, and it wasn't the one that deprived them of the opportunity to test their own product properly.
On your "After all" point: I guess you =have known some pretty awful developers; yes, it's a common attiotude amongst junior developers, and it's hard work to wean them from this silly attitude, and convince them that the sun doesn't shine from their lower backs. Senior developers that don't bother to test because they think their code must be perfect because they wrote it are generally a waste of space, and probably should not be employed (probably should never have been placed in a senior position); there is the odd one here and there who has such bright ideas that despite his attitude to testing he is a usefulk member of the team, but they are very few and very far between.
edit: spelling
You are certainly right. I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear with my statement.
The developer shouldn't be the only one who is testing his code. Unfortunately I've seen environments where the code was only tested by it's developers (hence leading to the "I wrote it and I think it is perfect so I don't spend much time testing it"-syndrome) or where code is delivered to UAT, only to discover that the application fails if I input a string longer than 20 characters.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
February 13, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Koen Verbeeck (2/13/2011)
You are certainly right. I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear with my statement.The developer shouldn't be the only one who is testing his code. Unfortunately I've seen environments where the code was only tested by it's developers (hence leading to the "I wrote it and I think it is perfect so I don't spend much time testing it"-syndrome) or where code is delivered to UAT, only to discover that the application fails if I input a string longer than 20 characters.
It's sad. I think the first thing that dies in a time crunch is documentation. That's not that unusual and can be frustrating a few years later, but it seems like the next thing that goes is any kind of significant dev testing. Eventually that seems to come to be the norm so a few places get used to getting the work done and then doing a 'smoke test' right after in QA.
As QA testing becomes more automated this I fear is simply going to become more common, not less.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
February 13, 2011 at 6:41 pm
Grant Fritchey (2/8/2011)
Hey, while I've got you guys here, when I was off the network, the Virtual Box and the laptop stopped communicating. I'm sure I've got a configuration wrong. Anyone point me in the right direction?
I'm sure someone has answered by now, but just in case: you probably have one (or both) set up with dynamically acquired IP addresses
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
February 13, 2011 at 6:48 pm
Dave Ballantyne (2/9/2011)
Handed my notice in today , i can already feel the freedom 🙂
Congratulations! Seems to be quite a few folks moving on... I myself just started a new job on 1/31!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
February 13, 2011 at 6:51 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (2/9/2011)
An interview isn't just the employer deciding on an employee. The employee is also judging the employer. I think many people fail to realize this even during the interview
I recently did an in-person interview, and when I entered the room the first comment was "this is the guy that interviewed us during the phone interview as hard as we interviewed him". My reply was that I have to ensure that I'll like the company, the people, and the work, or else it's a waste of time for all of us.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
February 13, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Craig Farrell (2/9/2011)
GSquared (2/9/2011)
Maybe it's time for us to step up to the plate and make some suggestions on the subject, and make them public enough to be of some use in that scenario. Instead of "SQL for Dummies", perhaps "A Manager's Guide to DBAs"?Now you're in line with Wayne to push me to get my articles done.
Please, no more of the whip... 😉
whoosh... CRACK! :smooooth:
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
February 13, 2011 at 6:55 pm
WayneS (2/13/2011)
Dave Ballantyne (2/9/2011)
Handed my notice in today , i can already feel the freedom 🙂Congratulations! Seems to be quite a few folks moving on... I myself just started a new job on 1/31!
Congratulations!
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
February 13, 2011 at 6:55 pm
WayneS (2/13/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (2/9/2011)
An interview isn't just the employer deciding on an employee. The employee is also judging the employer. I think many people fail to realize this even during the interviewI recently did an in-person interview, and when I entered the room the first comment was "this is the guy that interviewed us during the phone interview as hard as we interviewed him". My reply was that I have to ensure that I'll like the company, the people, and the work, or else it's a waste of time for all of us.
Awesome!
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
February 13, 2011 at 6:58 pm
Brandie Tarvin (2/10/2011)
It actually got down to 45 degrees F the other day. Oh, my! We had to wear coats!
I thought you Floridians broke out the coats when it dropped to 60?
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
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