February 11, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Anyone going to SQLSat 47 in Phoenix on the 19th?
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February 11, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Trey Staker (2/11/2011)
Anyone going to SQLSat 47 in Phoenix on the 19th?
I Kin Hav SQL Sater-dayz?! Um, yes, most likely. Didn't even realize there was going to be one here!
Um, get back to you on that. 🙂
EDIT: Hmm, I thought that there'd be a way to see what topics were going to be covered.
http://www.sqlsaturday.com/47/eventhome.aspx
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February 11, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Ya, they've done a really bad job of advertising it. This was originally scheduled for last summer then was move to now. I guess they couldn't get speakers to fly to Phoenix in the summer. :w00t:
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February 11, 2011 at 7:06 pm
Grant Fritchey (2/11/2011)
Lordy, that's still going on?
Yes, and now as a result of nadabadan's reply to Brandie our favourite Saint is feeding the troll. Will this wear him down tactic work, or will we see yet another typical nadabadanogram in reply to Lynn? Your guess is as good as mine, I suppose (as long as your guess is the latter not the former).
Tom
February 11, 2011 at 7:24 pm
Yes, Tom, yes I did. After reading Brandie's thoughtful response, and MasterBlasters retort, I just had to say something. I know he will now attack me as well, but then I am one of those old fashion saints willing to go knock a few heads when required. (Look back far enough and you'll see that someone else said that of me.)
I'm just curious how long before he responds.
February 11, 2011 at 8:22 pm
I see, so it's my sarcasm reversed to him that's got him set off. I'm sure he's quite annoyed at this. He's almost ready... just shy of a nice 350 degrees internally.
Anyone here mind if I cut loose on him? I truly believe he'll be tasty. I wanna eat him.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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February 11, 2011 at 9:06 pm
Okay, I guess we are The Borg and MasterBlaster refuses to be assimulated.
Please, some one tell me how my 2nd to last post could be considered insulting. I've read it several times and can't quite figure it out myself.
February 12, 2011 at 1:46 am
The Dixie Flatline (2/11/2011)
QA is where some developers send their code to see if it works correctly or not. Often they do this without verifying that it works in their development environment. After all, they are developers, not testers.... right?
A developer should of course test if his code does what it is supposed to do and if it compiles et cetera, but in my opinion, extensive testing should not be done by the person who wrote the code, but by someone else. A developer might think his code is perfect, so why bother testing, right?
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February 12, 2011 at 4:15 am
Craig, Lynn:
Even though it might be fun arguing with a person in such a mood from time to time, there usually is a point where the discussion starts running in circles. From my point of view that happened quite a few posts ago...
I think you're trying to not insult a type of person that might get insulted even by a simple "Good Morning!" ("What is GOOD about this morning? It's raining, my car just broke, I spilled a cup of coffee across my keyboard and my boss wants me to have that report ready within the next 10 minutes. And YOU are telling ME this is a GOOD morning?" - please note that only the capitalized words would be yelled...)
Fortunately, we have a site admin who has a very good sense when to intervene. So, if Steve decide to let it continue, that's fine with me (it's kinda entertaining...). If he'll stop it, it'd be fine with me too. Just need to find something different for entertainment then... 😀
February 12, 2011 at 6:01 am
Lynn Pettis (2/11/2011)
I'm just curious how long before he responds.
Well, now you know: 1 hour 29 minutes. And the response was pretty much what both you and I expected it to be.
Lynn Pettis (2/11/2011)
Okay, I guess we are The Borg and MasterBlaster refuses to be assimulated.Please, some one tell me how my 2nd to last post could be considered insulting. I've read it several times and can't quite figure it out myself.
I don't see how any sane person could regard it as insulting. I see three possibilities
1) we are dealing with someone with so little self respect that the mildest rebuke is interpreted as a deadly insult
2) we are dealing with a paranoid who thinks eveyone is out to insult him and interprets all messages accordingly
3) we are dealing with a troll who is just trying to get us to lose our cool and write some really nasty responses
One of the fun things about trolls is that it's usually quite easy to send them really nasty responses without losing one's cool, and provoke them into a hysterical response that is actually hysterically funny (the trouble is that you can't tell in advance that the troll will react that way, and if he's one of those who won't he will take your nasty response as an indicator of his success).
But you have to be sure it's a troll that your dealing with before doing that: if it's a person described at (1) or (2) above it's inhumane and cruel to lash out.
If I were 100% certain this one was a troll, I would have a go at him. But I'm only 90% certain, and 10% risk of being inhumane is too high.
Tom
February 12, 2011 at 6:03 am
Craig Farrell (2/11/2011)
Anyone here mind if I cut loose on him? I truly believe he'll be tasty. I wanna eat him.
My view is that if you're certain he's a troll, and not some poor benighted kid totalling lacking in confidence and self-respect, you can go ahead and cut loose; but you should not do that if you are noty certain.
Tom
February 12, 2011 at 8:02 am
LutzM (2/12/2011)
Craig, Lynn:Even though it might be fun arguing with a person in such a mood from time to time, there usually is a point where the discussion starts running in circles. From my point of view that happened quite a few posts ago...
I think you're trying to not insult a type of person that might get insulted even by a simple "Good Morning!" ("What is GOOD about this morning? It's raining, my car just broke, I spilled a cup of coffee across my keyboard and my boss wants me to have that report ready within the next 10 minutes. And YOU are telling ME this is a GOOD morning?" - please note that only the capitalized words would be yelled...)
Fortunately, we have a site admin who has a very good sense when to intervene. So, if Steve decide to let it continue, that's fine with me (it's kinda entertaining...). If he'll stop it, it'd be fine with me too. Just need to find something different for entertainment then... 😀
This made me laugh, reminded me of the movie "We were Soldiers."
February 12, 2011 at 8:18 am
It's a troll or it's an idiot. Either way, I think the conversation has gone way past the point where anything useful is going to come out of it. If people already involved want to continue, that's fine, but I would strongly recommend everyone just stay out of it.
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February 12, 2011 at 9:18 am
Lynn Pettis (2/11/2011)
Okay, I guess we are The Borg and MasterBlaster refuses to be assimulated.Please, some one tell me how my 2nd to last post could be considered insulting. I've read it several times and can't quite figure it out myself.
You suggested the possibility that he might be wrong or unclear. How dare you! I'm trying very hard not to jump in there, but I'd only add to the problem as I wouldn't be polite like you were. Then again, judging by his reaction it doesn't appear to matter how polite you are if you disagree.
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February 12, 2011 at 10:22 am
Koen Verbeeck (2/12/2011)
The Dixie Flatline (2/11/2011)
QA is where some developers send their code to see if it works correctly or not. Often they do this without verifying that it works in their development environment. After all, they are developers, not testers.... right?A developer should of course test if his code does what it is supposed to do and if it compiles et cetera, but in my opinion, extensive testing should not be done by the person who wrote the code, but by someone else. A developer might think his code is perfect, so why bother testing, right?
Quite a frightening idea!
You seem to be saying that developers should do minimal unit testing and no more. The idea horrifies me. When developers are not required to show that their code really does its job (which is a good deal more than compile correctly and work in the development environment) they tend to lose the sense that it must work, QA raising issues that don't turn up in the dev environment is seen as a pain , a nuisance, and product quality goes to pot.
Developers should, in my view, do exhaustive testing of their code: unit testing, system testing, and stress testing (often that means that developers have to work together to put together the tests; fine, that happens because they had to work together to build the system so why should it be a problem to work together on testing too?). That includes performance measurement, checking what happens when someone pulls the plug on part of the equipment, feeding in garbage at the UI to make sure its rejected with suitable warnings, measuring scalability, and checking system limits. For the purposes of this testing DBAs have to be treated as part of the development test team. Adequate equipment has to be provided to allow proper tests to be carried out. Full test reports of unit tests, system tests, resilience tests, invalid input tests, and stress tests should be generated and given to QA along with the software, installation instructions, user documentation, and configuration guide.
QA should be a verification/validation stage after the product has been signed off by development as fit for release - and if QA decide it isn't fit that should be regarded as a major development failure. QA should grill development about system limits, about performace expectations, and everything else, document the answers, and check that everything fits, not just check that code delivers the functional specifications (unless you include performace, resilience, scalability, system limits, and everything else in the functional specification).
I've worked in places where developers did proper testing, and in places where they didn't; I know which ones produced better code and maintained better morale amongst developers, and it wasn't the one that deprived them of the opportunity to test their own product properly.
On your "After all" point: I guess you =have known some pretty awful developers; yes, it's a common attiotude amongst junior developers, and it's hard work to wean them from this silly attitude, and convince them that the sun doesn't shine from their lower backs. Senior developers that don't bother to test because they think their code must be perfect because they wrote it are generally a waste of space, and probably should not be employed (probably should never have been placed in a senior position); there is the odd one here and there who has such bright ideas that despite his attitude to testing he is a usefulk member of the team, but they are very few and very far between.
edit: spelling
Tom
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