February 9, 2011 at 10:28 am
You know, I read through that whole thread, and somewhere mid-way I started wondering whether nadabadan himself wasn't actually the interviewer. I guess I am certainly wrong, but who knows?
Edit: Changed "may be wrong" to "am certainly wrong"
February 9, 2011 at 10:38 am
Jan Van der Eecken (2/9/2011)
You know, I read through that whole thread, and somewhere mid-way I started wondering whether nadabadan himself wasn't actually the interviewer. I guess I am certainly wrong, but who knows?Edit: Changed "may be wrong" to "am certainly wrong"
You know, for some reason I had the same feeling, a defensiveness to the question and our opinions of it. A number of times the exact same thing ran through my head. So... you're not alone. 🙂
Tom.Thomson (2/9/2011)
No academic with a pedantic methodology-oriented view of the world would have talked about a case "statement" in a language which has case expressions but no case statements.
Except MEEEeeeee.... :hehe: Though, I was corrected, CASE is a function to SQL Server... which makes sense, I guess.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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February 9, 2011 at 10:38 am
Jan Van der Eecken (2/9/2011)
You know, I read through that whole thread, and somewhere mid-way I started wondering whether nadabadan himself wasn't actually the interviewer. I guess I am certainly wrong, but who knows?
I don't know that you are wrong. I had the same thought, actually. Why else would he have gotten so worked up and insistent on taking the interviewer's side?
Well, there are several answers to that question, but I did mean it rhetorically.
February 9, 2011 at 10:40 am
Actually, I refer to CASE as a statement all the time. Call me lazy. I think I picked up the habit from the programming languages I learned in HS and college.
February 9, 2011 at 10:42 am
Brandie Tarvin (2/9/2011)
Jan Van der Eecken (2/9/2011)
You know, I read through that whole thread, and somewhere mid-way I started wondering whether nadabadan himself wasn't actually the interviewer. I guess I am certainly wrong, but who knows?I don't know that you are wrong. I had the same thought, actually. Why else would he have gotten so worked up and insistent on taking the interviewer's side?
Well, there are several answers to that question, but I did mean it rhetorically.
That or he does interviews and prides himself on "trick" questions. There are enough of that kind of interviewer out there and if they're going to have contact with me once I get the job, I frequently turn them down.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
February 9, 2011 at 10:43 am
Tom.Thomson (2/9/2011)
Grant Fritchey (2/9/2011)
Blech!Sorry guys, I'm not going into that one. It smacks of "Someone is wrong on the internet" I'm sure I can spend my time elsewhere more productively.
Probably sensible.
It's somewhat amusing though: he's now got Gus accusing hime of being an academic because he (a) indulges in ad hominem attacks and (b) [in Gus's view] he thinks methodology is more important that results. That could develop into something interesting, we could have a nice little flame war between those of us who have retained academic connections throughout our career (because we know that a far greater proportion of people in industry believe in methodology over results than in academia, so the academics will generally have a better idea of which methods actually work and deliver results) and those who have effectively ditched all contact with academia because at some point in their career they came across an academic idiot and immediately [un]reasoned from the particular to the general. But a request for help is the wrong topic in the wrong forum to play that sort of game (although nadabadan brought me close - smoke from ears effect - and Gus tempted me terribly - wouldn't this be fun effect).
Actually I don't believe the guy can be an academic (or if he is one, he won't last long). Almost every academic in the world knows the value of asking people how to do something stupid, that the response tells you a lot about how much they know and how their minds work. No academic computer scientist would ever have written his last response to Craig. No academic with a pedantic methodology-oriented view of the world would have talked about a case "statement" in a language which has case expressions but no case statements.
I'm trying to be generous to him.
The majority of "academics" understand the relationship between methodology and results. But academia and government beaurocracy as the only places where someone who thinks the way he does have any chance whatsoever of success. Didn't mean for it to be a generality about people in that field, meant it to be a statement about that kind of people. It's a subset, not the full set, that I'm writing about.
The ad hominem thing has nothing to do with academia, one way or the other. That's him as a person. No connection there.
Honestly, I think he's more likely some junior person whose spent too much time in classes he didn't understand, but merely memorized rote procedures and rules, and where he's used to be dictated to on not just what to do, but how to do it. A lot of junior devs think that same way, while they learn how to come up with their own solutions, and once they get over it, they become senior devs. Most junior devs, however, don't argue about it in public, they're too busy learning how to transition from one to the other and know they need to do so. Hence, I come to the conclusion that, hopefully for his sake, he's in academia (I wouldn't wish government beaurocracy on anyone!), where that attitude has at least a slight chance of success. Otherwise, he's most likely going to spend his whole career as a junior dev, and, again, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I'm not quite that cruel.
The value of the academic approach, methods over results, is that that's how new methods evolve, which give results that never before were possible. Without that mindset and the results of it, no progress would ever be made anywhere in anything, or we'd lose important methods that had fallen out of fashion. But that's rarely applicable in a business, so it doesn't really fit most job interviews.
And I should be clear, "methods over results" is only one academic approach. An important one, but there are many, many others. Even the invalid ones are valid in a research and learning environment, since 200 methods to not make a lightbulb is an important thing to know.
Edit: Correct a typo and clarify a phrase.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 9, 2011 at 10:43 am
Brandie Tarvin (2/9/2011)
Actually, I refer to CASE as a statement all the time. Call me lazy. I think I picked up the habit from the programming languages I learned in HS and college.
Yeah, since I learned CASE in C++, VB and others before I started using it in SQL Server I tend to call it a Statement as well. Good to know I'm wrong and should call it a function though! Otherwise I'd keep doing it. : -)
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
February 9, 2011 at 10:48 am
Stefan Krzywicki (2/9/2011)
Brandie Tarvin (2/9/2011)
Jan Van der Eecken (2/9/2011)
You know, I read through that whole thread, and somewhere mid-way I started wondering whether nadabadan himself wasn't actually the interviewer. I guess I am certainly wrong, but who knows?I don't know that you are wrong. I had the same thought, actually. Why else would he have gotten so worked up and insistent on taking the interviewer's side?
Well, there are several answers to that question, but I did mean it rhetorically.
That or he does interviews and prides himself on "trick" questions. There are enough of that kind of interviewer out there and if they're going to have contact with me once I get the job, I frequently turn them down.
Which exactly matches my original postulate on that thread.
That and the thread on "Where do you find DBAs" have made me wonder more about how managers pick DBAs. I know how I would, were I to go back into management, but it made me see a blind spot on that side of the table that we, as DBAs, probably haven't provided enough information about.
A site, or whatever, on the subject of picking decent DBAs is probably something recruiters and managers would love to have. They can't really filter for technical expertise the way we could. And haven't we all lamented about "how did that idiot ever become a DBA????" enough? Maybe it's time for us to step up to the plate and make some suggestions on the subject, and make them public enough to be of some use in that scenario. Instead of "SQL for Dummies", perhaps "A Manager's Guide to DBAs"?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 9, 2011 at 10:50 am
GSquared (2/9/2011)
Maybe it's time for us to step up to the plate and make some suggestions on the subject, and make them public enough to be of some use in that scenario. Instead of "SQL for Dummies", perhaps "A Manager's Guide to DBAs"?
Now you're in line with Wayne to push me to get my articles done.
Please, no more of the whip... 😉
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
February 9, 2011 at 10:52 am
Gus's suggestion has me wondering if a book like that would actually sell.
February 9, 2011 at 10:56 am
GSquared (2/9/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (2/9/2011)
Brandie Tarvin (2/9/2011)
Jan Van der Eecken (2/9/2011)
You know, I read through that whole thread, and somewhere mid-way I started wondering whether nadabadan himself wasn't actually the interviewer. I guess I am certainly wrong, but who knows?I don't know that you are wrong. I had the same thought, actually. Why else would he have gotten so worked up and insistent on taking the interviewer's side?
Well, there are several answers to that question, but I did mean it rhetorically.
That or he does interviews and prides himself on "trick" questions. There are enough of that kind of interviewer out there and if they're going to have contact with me once I get the job, I frequently turn them down.
Which exactly matches my original postulate on that thread.
That and the thread on "Where do you find DBAs" have made me wonder more about how managers pick DBAs. I know how I would, were I to go back into management, but it made me see a blind spot on that side of the table that we, as DBAs, probably haven't provided enough information about.
A site, or whatever, on the subject of picking decent DBAs is probably something recruiters and managers would love to have. They can't really filter for technical expertise the way we could. And haven't we all lamented about "how did that idiot ever become a DBA????" enough? Maybe it's time for us to step up to the plate and make some suggestions on the subject, and make them public enough to be of some use in that scenario. Instead of "SQL for Dummies", perhaps "A Manager's Guide to DBAs"?
It isn't a bad idea, but it has to be general enough, suggesting concepts and ideas to check for, or it'll become another website where the manager gets a checklist and another website where bad prospects get answers to questions for the interview.
If you aren't technical yourself, it can be really difficult to determine if the person you're interviewing is blowing smoke or knows their stuff. More valuable than a book would be a service. Hire out to do interviews. The only problem there is how do managers know you know enough to do the interview? Ah, recursive problems : -)
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
February 9, 2011 at 10:59 am
GSquared (2/9/2011)
That and the thread on "Where do you find DBAs" have made me wonder more about how managers pick DBAs.
My previous place thinks that a network engineer, developer, and report writer are excellent judges of DBA skills. I had been helping with the interviews, but they no longer want my services.
I don't know how many times I heard from candidates that the difference between char and varchar is that varchar stores unicode and char doesn't. Incredulous. Worse - the developer, network engineer and report writer don't know either. Worse because they are supposed to be the evaluators of the skills and knowledge of the candidate and they won't know any better when somebody is feeding them a line.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 9, 2011 at 11:00 am
Anybody have suggestions (blog/thread/article/advice) for me on how to find whether a value in one column contains a value in a different table's column?
Currently I'm doing this, but it sucketh, looking for the value in phrases.condition to be present in the census.initialComplaint column.
SELECT *
FROM dbo.CM_EDcensus AS census
CROSS JOIN dbo.cm_edCensusPhrases AS phrases
WHERE
--find phrases
CHARINDEX(phrases.condition,LTRIM(RTRIM(census.initialComplaint)))>0
OR
PATINDEX('%'+phrases.condition+'%',LTRIM(RTRIM(census.initialComplaint)))>0
hoping there's a way faster process to do that
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 9, 2011 at 11:02 am
jcrawf02 (2/9/2011)
Anybody have suggestions (blog/thread/article/advice) for me on how to find whether a value in one column contains a value in a different table's column?Currently I'm doing this, but it sucketh, looking for the value in phrases.condition to be present in the census.initialComplaint column.
SELECT *
FROM dbo.CM_EDcensus AS census
CROSS JOIN dbo.cm_edCensusPhrases AS phrases
WHERE
--find phrases
CHARINDEX(phrases.condition,LTRIM(RTRIM(census.initialComplaint)))>0
OR
PATINDEX('%'+phrases.condition+'%',LTRIM(RTRIM(census.initialComplaint)))>0
hoping there's a way faster process to do that
Have you tried fulltext indexes and enabling fulltext?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 9, 2011 at 11:03 am
CirquedeSQLeil (2/9/2011)
GSquared (2/9/2011)
That and the thread on "Where do you find DBAs" have made me wonder more about how managers pick DBAs.My previous place thinks that a network engineer, developer, and report writer are excellent judges of DBA skills. I had been helping with the interviews, but they no longer want my services.
I don't know how many times I heard from candidates that the difference between char and varchar is that varchar stores unicode and char doesn't. Incredulous. Worse - the developer, network engineer and report writer don't know either. Worse because they are supposed to be the evaluators of the skills and knowledge of the candidate and they won't know any better when somebody is feeding them a line.
I've been places where the solution to not finding suitable candidates is to stop letting qualified people help interview. It seems a common "solution". They always seem surprised when the person they end up hiring doesn't work out.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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