January 25, 2011 at 12:08 pm
GSquared (1/25/2011)
My usual estimate for that kind of thing is "less than eternity, but longer than breakfast". By that time, I usually don't care if I offend someone, but it's never actually offended anyone yet if I deliver it correctly.
I'll remember that one. Last time I was put on the spot like that I replied 'somewhere between 5 minutes and 5 months' and was told in reply 'You're full of crap'
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 25, 2011 at 12:11 pm
That's the kind of situation that tends to get me in trouble with my mouth.
"Let's see, would you like that in Wild Assed Guess time formatting, or Goldbricking for Giggles formatting? Since I just found out about it and haven't researched a darn thing, how about I give you an estimate on Thursday for a reasonable expectation today?"
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 25, 2011 at 12:13 pm
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
GSquared (1/25/2011)
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
Craig Farrell (1/25/2011)
I've got it pretty good at the moment...Wish I could say the same, as I'm sure my near-constant rants (whining) has implied. Starting to think about alternatives, and thoughts leading in uncomfortable direction.
What direction are you looking at?
North. About 9000km.
Not sure, just thinking, maybe, will see, depends....
Let's see ... Africa is just about 8,000 km on it's longest north-south dimension, and Jo'Burg is 28 degrees E, so that would put you in ... Czech Republic? 😛
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 25, 2011 at 12:20 pm
GSquared (1/25/2011)
Let's see ... Africa is just about 8,000 km on it's longest north-south dimension, and Jo'Burg is 28 degrees E, so that would put you in ... Czech Republic? 😛
Mr Pedantic. (though there's good aikido in the area you mentioned)
I have neither an atlas nor any intention of finding one, so make do with 9000km slightly W of N
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 25, 2011 at 12:22 pm
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
GSquared (1/25/2011)
My usual estimate for that kind of thing is "less than eternity, but longer than breakfast". By that time, I usually don't care if I offend someone, but it's never actually offended anyone yet if I deliver it correctly.I'll remember that one. Last time I was put on the spot like that I replied 'somewhere between 5 minutes and 5 months' and was told in reply 'You're full of crap'
There are reasons I cultivate a reputation as having "a weird sense of humor". Let's me get away with these things.
Better bet, if the person you're dealing with is in the "reject data" personality band, would be "It'll take a couple of days to figure out how long the actual project will take. What are your windows for meetings for the next week or so?"
(People who are using antagonism, anger, resentment, covert hostility, or fear, as their emotional-solution for a situation, or who use those chronically as their life-solution, will pretty much automatically reject any data presented by others, unless it matches their own pre-judgement of the situation. This can be overcome by presenting the data in their emotional band, though targeting another of course, or by presenting it half a band above them. There's a whole science to this. Absolutely vital in sales and marketing, but really quite useful in meetings and management as well.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 25, 2011 at 12:31 pm
The current discussion actually provide some answers "someone" might need for a meeting in the near future.
The question this person has to answer: "What systems are affected and what changes do we need to make if we expand our business?"
This person started asking questions to narrow it down:
Q1: "What's the scenario?" A: "Similar to scenario X."
Q2: "What are the differences to scenario X?" A: "Can't tell."
Q3: "Any changes in terms of in-house vs. outsourced tasks?" A: "Can't tell."
Q4: "Would it be ok if I'd simply provide an estimated budget number how much I'd need to cover scenario X plus a few deviations here and there (risk budget)?" A: "No. Budget will be provided by someone else. You need to provide the required changes as detailed as possible."
Q5: "Ok. And the person providing the budget will take full responsibility that it'll be enough to cover all changes?" A: "No. Since you'll define the changes, it'll be your responsibility."
Q6: see Q1 :crazy:
January 25, 2011 at 12:33 pm
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
North. About 9000km.
Not sure, just thinking, maybe, will see, depends....
Tunis? Algier? Edit: at lest when using Bing maps...
January 25, 2011 at 12:36 pm
GSquared (1/25/2011)
Better bet, if the person you're dealing with is in the "reject data" personality band, would be "It'll take a couple of days to figure out how long the actual project will take. What are your windows for meetings for the next week or so?"
That's usually the way I respond. With this person the usual reply is something along the lines of 'You must be able to give me an estimate' or 'how can you not know how long things will take?'
Non-technical manager who does want estimates to agree with her feelings on a matter. 🙁
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 25, 2011 at 12:41 pm
LutzM (1/25/2011)
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
North. About 9000km.
Not sure, just thinking, maybe, will see, depends....
Tunis? Algier? Edit: at lest when using Bing maps...
Bing maps are off then. It's just under 7500km from Johannesburg to Algier (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=what+is+the+distance+from+Johannesburg+to+Algier)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 25, 2011 at 12:44 pm
I'm thinkin' Greece. Gail wants gyros!
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
January 25, 2011 at 12:46 pm
I usually think about what my guess is, triple it, add a few days for vacation, whatever might come up, then list it as a rough guess.
Actually chastised someone recently in a meeting. The developer said he wasn't sure since he hadn't looked at the code. A person pressed for a date and I told them to stop asking stupid questions. If the developer doesn't know, he doesn't know.
January 25, 2011 at 12:59 pm
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
...Bing maps are off then. It's just under 7500km from Johannesburg to Algier (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=what+is+the+distance+from+Johannesburg+to+Algier)
When using the same tool: London sounds much more reasonable 😉
Side note: interesting web site...
January 25, 2011 at 1:09 pm
LutzM (1/25/2011)
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
...Bing maps are off then. It's just under 7500km from Johannesburg to Algier (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=what+is+the+distance+from+Johannesburg+to+Algier)
When using the same tool: London sounds much more reasonable 😉
Side note: interesting web site...
Nah nah, Olso.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Johannesburg+to+Oslo
Girl needs to get her smoke on.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
January 25, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Craig Farrell (1/25/2011)
LutzM (1/25/2011)
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
...Bing maps are off then. It's just under 7500km from Johannesburg to Algier (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=what+is+the+distance+from+Johannesburg+to+Algier)
When using the same tool: London sounds much more reasonable 😉
Side note: interesting web site...
Nah nah, Olso.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Johannesburg+to+Oslo
Girl needs to get her smoke on.
Well, Oslo is off by approx 600km and Gail mentioned NW instead of straight N.
I think we should stop being picky about it (at least I'll do). The story behind most probably is serious enough...
January 25, 2011 at 1:29 pm
GilaMonster (1/25/2011)
GSquared (1/25/2011)
Better bet, if the person you're dealing with is in the "reject data" personality band, would be "It'll take a couple of days to figure out how long the actual project will take. What are your windows for meetings for the next week or so?"That's usually the way I respond. With this person the usual reply is something along the lines of 'You must be able to give me an estimate' or 'how can you not know how long things will take?'
Non-technical manager who does want estimates to agree with her feelings on a matter. 🙁
Act like you're quoting someone important, and say something fortune-cookie-esque like, "You have to know where you're starting from before you plan a journey."
Won't help, but you can get hours of entertainment out of that kind of thing.
If you want real advice on how to handle, I'll need to know a few details about the person you're dealing with. Do they make eye contact? If so, do they hold it? Body language aggressive, passive, submissive, defensive, or indifferent? How do they respond if you suddenly reach towards them, to shake hands or clasp a shoulder in a friendly fashion? (Key to look for is flinch, return the reach, ignore, avoid, delay, reject, or return-and-amplify.) How do they respond to sudden noises or sudden quietness? Does the person pass along only bad news, mostly bad news, mixed news, mostly good news, only good news? How long between when you ask a common question (e.g.: Is it warm out today? or Think it'll rain?) and you get an answer to that question?
If you've practiced these things, the comm lag (question-reply latency) and the response to a reach, tell you everything you need to know about anyone's general/situational personality/emotional traits. The rest are needed because I can't see the person and test him/her myself.
If a person's emotional tone (situational emotion-solution) is above antagonism, you can expect them to respond mainly to analytical communications and appeals. Below that, it's more emotion than analysis, and you have to deal with them accordingly. Just like you can get analytical (itellectual) agreement with someone by exchanging data, you can get emotional agreement with someone by exchanging actions/reactions. But don't bother with emotional agreement with someone in the analytical bands (you generally won't need it) and don't bother with analytical agreement with someone in the emotional/reactive bands (it simply won't work).
But just like you can't get intellectual agreement with someone who is operating on different data than you, you can't get emotional agreement if you don't match emotional tones correctly.
And that's almost certainly more than anyone here wants to know about this subject. :w00t:
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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