October 26, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Trey Staker (10/26/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (10/26/2010)
jcrawf02 (10/26/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (10/26/2010)
What did I do wrong here?Was I not polite enough in my request for clarification on several of Mr. Celko's points? I know I've seen him return to posts to make multiple replies. Ah well, maybe later today when he has more time.
lol Stefan. Bear-bait much?
I was hoping to have a discussion of the different methods and maybe some links to documentation so I could read more on something I hadn't found much about. I hesitated going back to read when I saw he was the first person to comment on it, but I went back. Sure enough, he was throwing around opinion as fact so I figured I'd call him on it as politely as I could.
He left you links in his signature to the documentation...his books. Because he's a tail end of a donkey with OPs I personally suggest you don't read them. I have a personal boycott on his books.
Edited: Clarified that I have a boycott on his book, not suggesting per se for anyone else to do the same. The boycott will continue until he treats people seeking help with respect. If and when he ever changes I'll read, buy and endorse his books as I imagine he probably does actually know something about ISO standards.
I feel pretty much the same way, but if those books are written with the same attitude he shows here, I have no interest in reading them.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
October 26, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Mr. Fritchey... Wow! What a great surprise! I don't deserve it but I'm honored. 🙂
http://www.sqlpass.org/summit/na2010/Agenda/CommunityExpertsPicks.aspx
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 26, 2010 at 6:47 pm
GSquared (10/26/2010)
Jeff Moden (10/24/2010)
Wow... thanks for the insight on SSIS, folks. I've mostly resisted spending any decent amount of time on it because of what I've seen. Thanks to other people's posts, it seemed that you had to write some bloody damned script for just about anything complex that you wanted to do. I kept saying to myself, "Hell, it's a lot easier to do that in T-SQL... I don't need to mess things up by getting yet another layer of stuff involved."I guess I'll give it another look... maybe even a fair one this time.
I've built solutions that automated whole business departments in SSIS, and I haven't had to write a script for it yet. It's a pretty amazing product, once you dig into it a bit and get comfortable.
Thanks Gus.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 26, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Jeff Moden (10/26/2010)
Mr. Fritchey... Wow! What a great surprise! I don't deserve it but I'm honored. 🙂http://www.sqlpass.org/summit/na2010/Agenda/CommunityExpertsPicks.aspx
Don't be. If I end up with only three or four people, we're on our way over to you.
I really wish I could sit in your session. Getting the recording after the fact is not going to be the same.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 26, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (10/26/2010)
I was hoping to have a discussion of the different methods and maybe some links to documentation so I could read more on something I hadn't found much about. I hesitated going back to read when I saw he was the first person to comment on it, but I went back. Sure enough, he was throwing around opinion as fact so I figured I'd call him on it as politely as I could.
It looked to me like he was saying "this is the standard, so I do it this way" which is about as far as you can get from "throwing round opinion as fact" as is possible: it is in fact plain fact - what he says is that the standard is the standard, that he does it that way - the first is absolutelu true and I believe the second. DO you have any reason to disbelieve it?
I've taken cause against him sometimes when he's been being stupidly arrogant (which he does rather too often) but I reckon that here you are just banking on his reputation to have people agree with you that he did wrong where in fact he did right.
OK, he didn't reply yet: he may do so with a bit more time. Or he may regard your response as trolling - ask for documentation when he's referring you to the ISO standard on matters that are also well documented by Microsoft, as I'm sure he's aware you well know.
Tom
October 26, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Grant Fritchey (10/26/2010)
Jeff Moden (10/26/2010)
Mr. Fritchey... Wow! What a great surprise! I don't deserve it but I'm honored. 🙂http://www.sqlpass.org/summit/na2010/Agenda/CommunityExpertsPicks.aspx
Don't be. If I end up with only three or four people, we're on our way over to you.
I really wish I could sit in your session. Getting the recording after the fact is not going to be the same.
Again... I was thinking the same thing about missing your session. It's a real bugger that they scheduled us at the same time. I did that review on one of your books and read the other cover-to-cover. It would be good to see you in action.
Ya know? We could swap remote live sessions between our two groups. Any interest there? Roy Ernest and I did pretty good on just such a session...
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 26, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Jeff Moden (10/26/2010)
Mr. Fritchey... Wow! What a great surprise! I don't deserve it but I'm honored. 🙂http://www.sqlpass.org/summit/na2010/Agenda/CommunityExpertsPicks.aspx
Very well deserved. The inclusion of this "musr see" session says good things about the agenda.
Tom
October 26, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Tom.Thomson (10/26/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (10/26/2010)
I was hoping to have a discussion of the different methods and maybe some links to documentation so I could read more on something I hadn't found much about. I hesitated going back to read when I saw he was the first person to comment on it, but I went back. Sure enough, he was throwing around opinion as fact so I figured I'd call him on it as politely as I could.It looked to me like he was saying "this is the standard, so I do it this way" which is about as far as you can get from "throwing round opinion as fact" as is possible: it is in fact plain fact - what he says is that the standard is the standard, that he does it that way - the first is absolutelu true and I believe the second. DO you have any reason to disbelieve it?
I've taken cause against him sometimes when he's been being stupidly arrogant (which he does rather too often) but I reckon that here you are just banking on his reputation to have people agree with you that he did wrong where in fact he did right.
OK, he didn't reply yet: he may do so with a bit more time. Or he may regard your response as trolling - ask for documentation when he's referring you to the ISO standard on matters that are also well documented by Microsoft, as I'm sure he's aware you well know.
Honestly, he started out with "You need to do it this way" when Microsoft's Books Online says it is fine to do it the other way. That's why I asked for documentation. Books Online isn't always correct and if he had something, I'd love to see it. I was being sarcastic about his non-response because when he's yelling at people he jumps right back in with multiple posts.
Why is the ANSI/ISO standard better?
I asked politely for clarification and I'd love to see it. I'm snarking here because he declaims, he doesn't explain.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
October 26, 2010 at 9:47 pm
GSquared (10/26/2010)
Jeff Moden (10/24/2010)
Wow... thanks for the insight on SSIS, folks. I've mostly resisted spending any decent amount of time on it because of what I've seen. Thanks to other people's posts, it seemed that you had to write some bloody damned script for just about anything complex that you wanted to do. I kept saying to myself, "Hell, it's a lot easier to do that in T-SQL... I don't need to mess things up by getting yet another layer of stuff involved."I guess I'll give it another look... maybe even a fair one this time.
I've built solutions that automated whole business departments in SSIS, and I haven't had to write a script for it yet. It's a pretty amazing product, once you dig into it a bit and get comfortable.
Gus,
Since you seem to know SSIS pretty well, I have a question for you. Is there a way to have a query that generates dynamic columns exported to an excel spreadsheet? The problem that I've run into is that in the Data Flow, you have to have the source and destination columns pre-defined... is there a way around this?
I've read about having a script that essentially generates a SSIS package on the fly... this is way too much complicated.
Thanks!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
October 26, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Anyone ever shrunk a DB that's involved in log shipping? If so, please comment - http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1010214-146-1.aspx
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 26, 2010 at 11:35 pm
WayneS (10/26/2010)
GSquared (10/26/2010)
Jeff Moden (10/24/2010)
Wow... thanks for the insight on SSIS, folks. I've mostly resisted spending any decent amount of time on it because of what I've seen. Thanks to other people's posts, it seemed that you had to write some bloody damned script for just about anything complex that you wanted to do. I kept saying to myself, "Hell, it's a lot easier to do that in T-SQL... I don't need to mess things up by getting yet another layer of stuff involved."I guess I'll give it another look... maybe even a fair one this time.
I've built solutions that automated whole business departments in SSIS, and I haven't had to write a script for it yet. It's a pretty amazing product, once you dig into it a bit and get comfortable.
Gus,
Since you seem to know SSIS pretty well, I have a question for you. Is there a way to have a query that generates dynamic columns exported to an excel spreadsheet? The problem that I've run into is that in the Data Flow, you have to have the source and destination columns pre-defined... is there a way around this?
I've read about having a script that essentially generates a SSIS package on the fly... this is way too much complicated.
Thanks!
SQL Task to run a dynamic cross-tab stored procedure?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 26, 2010 at 11:44 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (10/26/2010)
Tom.Thomson (10/26/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (10/26/2010)
I was hoping to have a discussion of the different methods and maybe some links to documentation so I could read more on something I hadn't found much about. I hesitated going back to read when I saw he was the first person to comment on it, but I went back. Sure enough, he was throwing around opinion as fact so I figured I'd call him on it as politely as I could.It looked to me like he was saying "this is the standard, so I do it this way" which is about as far as you can get from "throwing round opinion as fact" as is possible: it is in fact plain fact - what he says is that the standard is the standard, that he does it that way - the first is absolutelu true and I believe the second. DO you have any reason to disbelieve it?
I've taken cause against him sometimes when he's been being stupidly arrogant (which he does rather too often) but I reckon that here you are just banking on his reputation to have people agree with you that he did wrong where in fact he did right.
OK, he didn't reply yet: he may do so with a bit more time. Or he may regard your response as trolling - ask for documentation when he's referring you to the ISO standard on matters that are also well documented by Microsoft, as I'm sure he's aware you well know.
Honestly, he started out with "You need to do it this way" when Microsoft's Books Online says it is fine to do it the other way. That's why I asked for documentation. Books Online isn't always correct and if he had something, I'd love to see it. I was being sarcastic about his non-response because when he's yelling at people he jumps right back in with multiple posts.
Why is the ANSI/ISO standard better?
I asked politely for clarification and I'd love to see it. I'm snarking here because he declaims, he doesn't explain.
ANSI/ISO is supposedly the "universal standard SQL" the will magically make code migrations from one RDBMS to another "seemless".
.
.
.
BBBWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHH-HAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAA!!!! 😛
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 27, 2010 at 5:32 am
Jeff Moden (10/26/2010)
Again... I was thinking the same thing about missing your session. It's a real bugger that they scheduled us at the same time. I did that review on one of your books and read the other cover-to-cover. It would be good to see you in action.Ya know? We could swap remote live sessions between our two groups. Any interest there? Roy Ernest and I did pretty good on just such a session...
And I was never worthy of such a wonderful review. Thanks though.
Sure, sounds good. Plan that for January or later next year? I think I might have a presentation for December already.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 27, 2010 at 5:42 am
WayneS (10/26/2010)
Is there a way to have a query that generates dynamic columns exported to an excel spreadsheet? The problem that I've run into is that in the Data Flow, you have to have the source and destination columns pre-defined... is there a way around this?I've read about having a script that essentially generates a SSIS package on the fly... this is way too much complicated.
Files can be dynamically generated in SSIS. Don't generate the package on the fly. Generate the destination file on the fly. That way the columns can be defined by the data, not the other way around. You'll need to use a File Connection (not a Flat File Connection) to do it. And initially, you'll have to have a faux file to point the Connection to in order for it not to error out. But you can remove the faux info after you've got everything else set up.
October 27, 2010 at 5:57 am
To the Threadizens/Threadites/Threadoids/Threadopians:
Please, make sure, if you're going to the Summit, you track me down and introduce yourself in person. Some of you I know already, Dixie,Jeff,etc., but some of you I've never met. I'm going to be all over the place, but I really want to meet you people for the first time, or again. If nothing else, I'll be working as a Amabassador for the keynote on Tuesday. Look for the tall bald guy in a red vest.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
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