February 25, 2009 at 11:45 am
It may be a blunt instrument, but is there any scope for creating a section on the homepage or a link in the menu bar with the main heading of "Get an answer" or "Ask an expert" with subchapters\links such as "Search knowledge base" (yip, exactely the same as the search bar at the top), "Getting your questions answered", "Time saving tips" ect. Might be worth pointing out that a lot of the answers already exist and, as with BOL, you have to learn how to navigate your resources in order to maximise them.
Max
February 25, 2009 at 11:50 am
Bob Hovious (2/25/2009)
Hey G 🙂It's not barrier to entry. Nobody has to take a test on the material. It's just something that first time OPs should read before they ask their question. If they spend five minutes reading it, they might even get their question answered faster.
This community is committed to helping everyone, regardless of their skill level, which is a great thing. The point is that the more people you can teach to ask correctly, the faster you can get their questions answered and the more time will be available to help others. Also, as was previously pointed out, sometimes just setting up the question helps an OP see the answer.
Many of you have heard the old saying "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime." Just out of curiousity, how many of you see this forum's ultimate objective to be giving people fish, or teaching them to fish?
I agree with the sentiment, absolutely, but I do think forcing anyone to read stuff is going to do one of two things, chase away people who need help and really will benefit from it, get scanned about as fast as those user agreements that MS makes me agree to prior to installing their software. Either way, I don't think we're doing a service to the people that we're trying to talk to.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
February 25, 2009 at 11:52 am
Teaching, but you can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught.
I agree 100%, Gail.
So do you give the person who doesn't want to be taught his fish and move on? Short term it's the quick and easy thing to do. But quick and easy is something we often warn against when it's an SQL issue. Try thinking of this forum as a system too. All communities are systems.
I'm borrowing some concepts from my wife, who is trained in behaviour analysis. When we just give someone a fish we actually reward them for either total ignorance or lack of effort. The more people we give fish to, the more we encourage others to demand fish instead of lessons. (Why not? Everyone else gets a fish without having to do any work.)
At one end of the spectrum there will be some people who will never put forth any effort, and at the other end there are people who are so hungry for knowledge that they will cooperate in any way they can. On the bell curve between are people who can be swayed either way. Giving fish away encourages many of them to stay lazy and/or ignorant. Which way do you want these people on the edge to lean?
The reality is that we are all volunteers and apply our own internal standards about who we will and will not help. Those standards may change with the demands of our work schedules and our mood of the day. But the give/teach issue applies to so many things besides SQL. I want to make the world a better place. But is it a good thing to help people pass courses without mastery of the subject, to get jobs they aren't qualified for, or to survive in a workplace where they have no business being?
I'm asking this purely as a matter of curiousity, because you are all intelligent people who obviously have good enough hearts to want to help others. I'm truly interested in your various perspectives.
.... and G... I LOVED what you did with the fish metaphore.
[Now stepping down off soapbox to listen quietly.]
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
February 25, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I like that code, but then Jeff will get upset over the leading commas. I find myself constantly moving his trailers to leaders. Can't someone explain to him how to format stufff!?!?!!?!! 😛
February 25, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Bob, it's a good thought, but it doesn't take the concept far enough.
Civilization exists to allow people to specialize so they can help each other out.
I need to get a new computer. My current one blew its motherboard two nights ago. I have a couple of choices: I can buy something off the shelf, or I can buy parts and build one myself. Variations exist, but they boil down pretty much that way.
What if I went to the store and wanted to buy a motherboard, and the salesperson instead spent a significant effort trying to teach me how to assemble one from fiberglass sheets, circuit inlays, resistors, capacitors, ICs, etc? And what if I then went to buy those things, and they spent their time trying to teach me how to make a resistor out of wire and ceramic? And I went to get the wire, and had to learn how to draw copper? And then to smelt copper? And then to mine copper?
Would I ever end up with a new computer? No.
So what would you do if someone asked for a little help on a proc, and all he needs is help on that particular proc? He's a highly skilled .NET dev, highly paid and with a good job that he enjoys, he's just not quite as good at SQL as is needed for this one particular proc. Teach him to master SQL? No. He's got better things to do with his time, like write .NET code, read .NET books (or perhaps write them), eat dinner with his family, etc.
Let's take it another direction. You have a young child in front of you, who is trying to read a simple primer, and is having trouble with "see Spot run". Just doesn't seem to know how to pronounce "Spot". Do you teach them how to pronounce "Spot" (give them a fish), or try to teach them the fundamentals of the origin of modern human linguistics, the basis of the Latin alphabet, symbolic logic, and so on (teach them how to invent languages and codify them = teach them how to fish)?
I'm not going to be insulting and say that some of the people posting here are "little kids" or need to be treated as such (no... wait ... some of them do seem that way 🙂 ). I'm saying there's a gradient of learning that's needed.
To overuse the fish metaphore again: Someone tells you he's hungry, so you try to teach him how to fish. He dies of hunger before he catches his first fish, and even if he had caught it, he doesn't know how to gut, skin, debone, cook, etc., a fish, because he's never seen one before in his life.
Yes, it sounds more noble to teach someone to fish, but there's more to it than that.
Sometimes, the person just needs a fish, not a pole and a set of lessons.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 25, 2009 at 12:18 pm
rodjkidd (2/24/2009)
Wow!Wheel Of Time - a mate is mad about this and was upset when Robert died and couldn't do the 13th and final part. Never read it myself.
Starship Troopers - this is weird, on the book quiz last week they described a book from the 50's for which the plot sounded a lot like the Starship Troopers movie - I never knew it was based on a a book from the 50's. And now it's been discussed here. I will have to hunt it down at some point.
Rodders...
Wheel of Time was great at the start, very interesting plot, and I personally loved how Jordan didn't rush through stories. Epics *should* take thousands of pages to develop. However, it got too scattered after 8 or 9 books, trying to jump to this character here and that one there, I'd have preferred more focus on one group at any time. Whatever, now we'll never know how the story ends.
Starship Troopers is a great book, and a stupid movie, although fun to watch. Written by an ex-military guy who was into military theory and political commentary, it's thought-provoking while still holding your blood and guts attention throughout.
And some others mentioned Ender's Game and sequels - I have to agree with these as excellent reads, it lost me a little on the third one, but the first two were great.
Been too long since I had time to really read, trying to go back to school and get that degree I never got. Been reading textbooks and forum posts and online resources too much.
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 25, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Did I open a can of worms? 😛
We might not be able to teach everyone or force them to learn. But maybe there are people who will learn by observation. You write a peace of code and give them, they use it in their code. Next time they want to write another peace of T-SQL or create an object, they might use the same peace of code as base and expand on it. Automatically they will keep using the standard that the answer that was provided.
Just to put it in another way, the people who answers the question could lead by example. This is being followed by quite a few of our top posters here. Maybe rest of the group should also pick it up is what I am suggesting.
-Roy
February 25, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (2/25/2009)
And yet one more example of things "getting worse"
It was a metaphorical question:
"How we will add column" - expresses the need for a new lane on today's highways, a new way of thinking so that fuel-efficient cars can run alongside the existing models
"at run time" - alternative fuel solution. Think Flintstones
"in table" - referring to the wide-open spaces on which we love to drive. Route 66, etc . .
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 25, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Not being a fisherman (when I was a kid and went fishing, all I caught were nibbles), I'll take this metaphor a little further. Teaching someone fish doesn't mean had them a pole and let them loose. When I was being taught how to fish, someone took the time to show me how to put the hook on the line, bait the hook, how to hold the pole and cast the line. How to bring the fish in and get it off the hook (their line, as I said, all I could catch were nibbles), and how to prepare the fish for cooking. All of that is teaching someone to fish. Giving someone a fish is just that, giving them the fish, most likely already cooked or at least ready to cook.
We are here to teach, or better said, to mentor others. This requires effort from the other party as well. How much effort are we going to give to someone who isn't really interested in learning how to do something themselves?
Yes, we have the experienced .NET developers that sometimes find themselves needing help with SQL. But these individuals also seem to be willing and able to quickly answer questions, and if they don't understand how to do something we ask them for, they ask how to do it so that they can provide the info we need. They are highly skilled individuals who have come to discover that our world is just as technical as theirs.
February 25, 2009 at 12:39 pm
*sniff *sniff - smells like fish in here. :hehe:
I think perhaps what we're looking for are a couple of questions that need to be answered as part of the post?
something like:
1 - what are you trying to accomplish?
2 - what have you already tried?
3 - do you have sample scripts available with sample data? (see http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for help with this)
4 - What is your question?
Then it's part of the form, not a barrier requirement before posting. Even if they don't fill it out, it's right there in front of them, begging to be noticed.
Forgot one,
5 - do you use leading commas? (this results in expulsion)
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 25, 2009 at 12:42 pm
jcrawf02 (2/25/2009)
*sniff *sniff - smells like fish in here. :hehe:I think perhaps what we're looking for are a couple of questions that need to be answered as part of the post?
something like:
1 - what are you trying to accomplish?
2 - what have you already tried?
3 - do you have sample scripts available with sample data? (see http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for help with this)
4 - What is your question?
Then it's part of the form, not a barrier requirement before posting. Even if they don't fill it out, it's right there in front of them, begging to be noticed.
Forgot one,
5 - do you use leading commas? (this results in expulsion)
Perfect! Well, point 5 is anyway!
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 25, 2009 at 12:44 pm
jcrawf02 (2/25/2009)
*sniff *sniff - smells like fish in here. :hehe:I think perhaps what we're looking for are a couple of questions that need to be answered as part of the post?
something like:
1 - what are you trying to accomplish?
2 - what have you already tried?
3 - do you have sample scripts available with sample data? (see http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for help with this)
4 - What is your question?
Then it's part of the form, not a barrier requirement before posting. Even if they don't fill it out, it's right there in front of them, begging to be noticed.
Forgot one,
5 - do you use leading commas? (this results in expulsion)
I don't mind the leading commas, I just move them to back of the previous line. 😉
February 25, 2009 at 12:46 pm
jcrawf02 (2/25/2009)
*sniff *sniff - smells like fish in here. :hehe:I think perhaps what we're looking for are a couple of questions that need to be answered as part of the post?
something like:
1 - what are you trying to accomplish?
2 - what have you already tried?
3 - do you have sample scripts available with sample data? (see http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/ for help with this)
4 - What is your question?
Then it's part of the form, not a barrier requirement before posting. Even if they don't fill it out, it's right there in front of them, begging to be noticed.
Forgot one,
5 - do you use leading commas? (this results in expulsion)
Database names with 3 or more spaces should also result in immediate expulsion. 1-3 spaces and we'll slow down the expulsion a bit.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
February 25, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Lynn Pettis (2/25/2009)
I don't mind the leading commas, I just move them to back of the previous line. 😉
I write it with leading commas and when my former colleague reviews my code, he would change it to back if the previous line 😀 I would do the same with his code... lol
-Roy
February 25, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I don't know about the three or more spaces thing. I've seen ones with punctuation and such that were basically a full description of the purpose of the database. Those are definitely "kill it before it gets to the children" situations. But spaces? I'm not so sure. They're bad, but are they that bad? 🙂
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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