August 3, 2010 at 8:56 am
WayneS (8/3/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
Since this is the water cooler, any comments?http://abcnews.go.com/US/ground-mosque-plan-stirs-controversy/story?id=10670631
There's a quote in this article that sums up my feelings:
"On the one hand, stopping a mosque from being built undermines the very notion of freedom of worship in the United States. On the other hand, the idea of building a mosque and celebrating Islam at the site where 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Islamic terrorists is an affront to so many people that I see it dividing New York and the nation."
Except it isn't "at the site", it is several blocks away.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 3, 2010 at 9:18 am
Stefan Krzywicki (8/3/2010)
WayneS (8/3/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
Since this is the water cooler, any comments?http://abcnews.go.com/US/ground-mosque-plan-stirs-controversy/story?id=10670631
There's a quote in this article that sums up my feelings:
"On the one hand, stopping a mosque from being built undermines the very notion of freedom of worship in the United States. On the other hand, the idea of building a mosque and celebrating Islam at the site where 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Islamic terrorists is an affront to so many people that I see it dividing New York and the nation."
Except it isn't "at the site", it is several blocks away.
Good point. However, most people feel that even a few blocks away is too close.
Me? I've really been torn by this myself. I feel it's too close (especially in light of Grant's comments), but yet they have that right.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
August 3, 2010 at 9:25 am
WayneS (8/3/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/3/2010)
WayneS (8/3/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
Since this is the water cooler, any comments?http://abcnews.go.com/US/ground-mosque-plan-stirs-controversy/story?id=10670631
There's a quote in this article that sums up my feelings:
"On the one hand, stopping a mosque from being built undermines the very notion of freedom of worship in the United States. On the other hand, the idea of building a mosque and celebrating Islam at the site where 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Islamic terrorists is an affront to so many people that I see it dividing New York and the nation."
Except it isn't "at the site", it is several blocks away.
Good point. However, most people feel that even a few blocks away is too close.
Me? I've really been torn by this myself. I feel it's too close (especially in light of Grant's comments), but yet they have that right.
So how far is "far enough"? Who gets to make the call on what groups are allowed to build what religious building where? We're supposed to have freedom of religion in the US and when you start putting limits on something as innocuous as converting a building you own into a mosque where do you stop? Some of those who died in the attack were themselves muslims, shouldn't they be considered as well as everyone else?
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 3, 2010 at 9:28 am
Not to make it too much of an issue, but in the US we have fundamentally tried to give freedom to religious institutions. For better or worse, and that ought to be extended here. We have all sorts of Christian churches that preach various levels of violence as well. Some for Ireland in the past, some for militias, some for other reasons. We have had various people in this country perpetrate violence who had attended church.
It feels as though people are equating Islam with terrorism. The fact that the terrorists that attacked the World Trade Center were Muslims does not mean that all Muslims should be shunned.
I'm not Muslim, but I experienced a lot of this prejudice after 9/11 because of the color of my skin. It's a poor reflection on American values, IMHO, to judge a religion based on the actions of a few people.
August 3, 2010 at 9:28 am
Stefan Krzywicki (8/3/2010)
WayneS (8/3/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/3/2010)
WayneS (8/3/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
Since this is the water cooler, any comments?http://abcnews.go.com/US/ground-mosque-plan-stirs-controversy/story?id=10670631
There's a quote in this article that sums up my feelings:
"On the one hand, stopping a mosque from being built undermines the very notion of freedom of worship in the United States. On the other hand, the idea of building a mosque and celebrating Islam at the site where 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Islamic terrorists is an affront to so many people that I see it dividing New York and the nation."
Except it isn't "at the site", it is several blocks away.
Good point. However, most people feel that even a few blocks away is too close.
Me? I've really been torn by this myself. I feel it's too close (especially in light of Grant's comments), but yet they have that right.
So how far is "far enough"? Who gets to make the call on what groups are allowed to build what religious building where? We're supposed to have freedom of religion in the US and when you start putting limits on something as innocuous as converting a building you own into a mosque where do you stop? Some of those who died in the attack were themselves muslims, shouldn't they be considered as well as everyone else?
Agreed. But my objection isn't with the religion or the mosque. My objection is with the organization that's running it. Will they be supporting the gathering of funds for projects like the crater down the street? If it were another group... I wouldn't have an objection at all, because I really do believe that it's not up to any one of us to question how or what another person worships.
So for me, worshipping god/gods/goddesses = cool, plotting the overthrow of western civilization = not cool.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
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August 3, 2010 at 9:30 am
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
Not to make it too much of an issue, but in the US we have fundamentally tried to give freedom to religious institutions. For better or worse, and that ought to be extended here. We have all sorts of Christian churches that preach various levels of violence as well. Some for Ireland in the past, some for militias, some for other reasons. We have had various people in this country perpetrate violence who had attended church.It feels as though people are equating Islam with terrorism. The fact that the terrorists that attacked the World Trade Center were Muslims does not mean that all Muslims should be shunned.
I'm not Muslim, but I experienced a lot of this prejudice after 9/11 because of the color of my skin. It's a poor reflection on American values, IMHO, to judge a religion based on the actions of a few people.
I couldn't agree with you more.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
August 3, 2010 at 9:37 am
I just don't think it's smart. It's very American to build in such a place to declare your freedom of religion, and a bold statement of reconciliation (potentially), but not sure it's smart.
Seems like there might be less sensitive locations where they wouldn't be stirring up trouble with folks who will obviously feel strongly that they should not be there.
That said, and even if Grant's comment is true and they support those who perpetrated the atrocities of 9/11, is there any way they can legally stop it without overstepping the bounds of discrimination?
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How best to post your question[/url]
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
August 3, 2010 at 9:38 am
Grant,
I do agree with you on the potential funding issues, and that ought to be investigated. If there is something illegal, no church charter, IRS 501 charity should be allowed.
However, those rules ought to be applied fairly against Jewish churches funding violence in Palestine, as well as Catholic churches in Ireland, etc.
We have had more than our share of Southern Baptist churches allowing or supporting violence as well.
August 3, 2010 at 9:47 am
jcrawf02 (8/3/2010)
I just don't think it's smart. It's very American to build in such a place to declare your freedom of religion, and a bold statement of reconciliation (potentially), but not sure it's smart.Seems like there might be less sensitive locations where they wouldn't be stirring up trouble with folks who will obviously feel strongly that they should not be there.
That said, and even if Grant's comment is true and they support those who perpetrated the atrocities of 9/11, is there any way they can legally stop it without overstepping the bounds of discrimination?
When you start making this kind of calculation, to not do X because there are people who don't want you to even though it is your right to do so, the "people who feel strongly" just push harder. For example, there's a celebration at a 6 flags for musilms. It happens every year the day after the end of Ramadan and has been going since 2000. This year, Ramadan ends on Sept 10th. In order to assuage people who would "feel strongly it shouldn't" be on 9/11, they moved the date to 9/12. The result? Those strongly feeling people are accusing them of putting it on the 12th just to be offensive.
You have to use your freedom to retain it.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 3, 2010 at 9:55 am
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
I'm not Muslim, but I experienced a lot of this prejudice after 9/11 because of the color of my skin.
My brother-in-law has the same problem. He is profiled at every airport due to the color of his skin. He is as american and red-neck as one could be but he has that skin tone. Thus he gets searched every time he flies. He just deals with it.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
August 3, 2010 at 9:57 am
Stefan Krzywicki (8/3/2010)
jcrawf02 (8/3/2010)
I just don't think it's smart. It's very American to build in such a place to declare your freedom of religion, and a bold statement of reconciliation (potentially), but not sure it's smart.Seems like there might be less sensitive locations where they wouldn't be stirring up trouble with folks who will obviously feel strongly that they should not be there.
That said, and even if Grant's comment is true and they support those who perpetrated the atrocities of 9/11, is there any way they can legally stop it without overstepping the bounds of discrimination?
When you start making this kind of calculation, to not do X because there are people who don't want you to even though it is your right to do so, the "people who feel strongly" just push harder. For example, there's a celebration at a 6 flags for musilms. It happens every year the day after the end of Ramadan and has been going since 2000. This year, Ramadan ends on Sept 10th. In order to assuage people who would "feel strongly it shouldn't" be on 9/11, they moved the date to 9/12. The result? Those strongly feeling people are accusing them of putting it on the 12th just to be offensive.
You have to use your freedom to retain it.
Interesting point
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
August 3, 2010 at 10:02 am
About a year after 9/11, I had to fly to CA every month. Every single trip I had something taken from me, either in Denver, or SF. Same bag, same stuff, but they took something every trip, inconsistently. I was searched almost every time, on my person, and often my car when I was parking in Denver, so I allowed myself 30 minutes more than guidelines.
With a full beard, going to Ireland and the UK in 1987, I was harassed quite a bit as well. Same in Italian trains and and airports around the same time.
I have to say that since about 2003, I never get bothered anymore.
I understand the anger, and the concerns. It's part of human nature. I just don't think it ought to be part of our law.
August 3, 2010 at 10:09 am
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
About a year after 9/11, I had to fly to CA every month. Every single trip I had something taken from me, either in Denver, or SF. Same bag, same stuff, but they took something every trip, inconsistently. I was searched almost every time, on my person, and often my car when I was parking in Denver, so I allowed myself 30 minutes more than guidelines.With a full beard, going to Ireland and the UK in 1987, I was harassed quite a bit as well. Same in Italian trains and and airports around the same time.
I have to say that since about 2003, I never get bothered anymore.
I understand the anger, and the concerns. It's part of human nature. I just don't think it ought to be part of our law.
Absolutely!
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 3, 2010 at 10:27 am
Steve Jones - Editor (8/3/2010)
Since this is the water cooler, any comments?http://abcnews.go.com/US/ground-mosque-plan-stirs-controversy/story?id=10670631
1. Why would such an edifice be offensive? Is the intent, of those proposing this site and mosque, to build this mosque to offend survivors and family? If no intent to offend exists, then why are people being offended?
2. I see this edifice as more of a peace offering than a Trojan Horse. I don't believe there to be any mal-intent in building this mosque. Prejudice against this mosque and this particular group seems unfounded and should be let go.
3. The fact that the US is still invading the homelands of some Islam nations is far more offensive than the building of a mosque. Hate and guns mixed with prejudice have no place in society - and yet we perpetuate the problem. After nine years we continue to ship troops over there to continue the cycle.
4. Maybe people should try a dose of forgiveness, and let go of the hate.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
August 3, 2010 at 10:37 am
So totally off topic -
Hope those in the northern regions have clear skies for the possilbe light show tonight.
Greg E
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