Are the posted questions getting worse?
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Matt Miller (#4) (7/25/2010)
Not that I agree with the argument, but I believe the reasoning had to do with not wanting to deal with the unertainties around non-determinism. So - they want you to "pick" which non-detemrinistic value you might get from a function, and then pass it as a constant.I do think it's fairly dumb, as you said, but that's the rationale as I understand it.
You may well be right that it's non-deterministic functions they worrierd about; but it's all the one dumb game: wanting to transfer repsonsibility the resolution of any nondeterminism associated with evaluating funtion parameters to the user - who in most cases has no control over underlying nondeterminism. Worrying about nondeterministic function calls in argument expressions would actually be a worse case of dumbness than worrying about evaluation order, since a development shop may have decided on a "normal acquisition order" for locks and required developers to adhere to it whenever possible, but no-one can require a programmer to moderate the nodeterminism of the nondeterministic functions he/she has to invoke.
Tom
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Tom.Thomson (7/25/2010)
Matt Miller (#4) (7/25/2010)
Not that I agree with the argument, but I believe the reasoning had to do with not wanting to deal with the unertainties around non-determinism. So - they want you to "pick" which non-detemrinistic value you might get from a function, and then pass it as a constant.I do think it's fairly dumb, as you said, but that's the rationale as I understand it.
You may well be right that it's non-deterministic functions they worrierd about; but it's all the one dumb game: wanting to transfer repsonsibility the resolution of any nondeterminism associated with evaluating funtion parameters to the user - who in most cases has no control over underlying nondeterminism. Worrying about nondeterministic function calls in argument expressions would actually be a worse case of dumbness than worrying about evaluation order, since a development shop may have decided on a "normal acquisition order" for locks and required developers to adhere to it whenever possible, but no-one can require a programmer to moderate the nodeterminism of the nondeterministic functions he/she has to invoke.
Microsoft dumbness??? This reminds me of a recent discussion on TRY/CATCH...:-P
(Just kidding, not trying to compare any of you to Mr. Doobya, but I couldn't resist:-))
-- Gianluca Sartori
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Gianluca Sartori (7/26/2010)
Microsoft dumbness??? This reminds me of a recent discussion on TRY/CATCH...:-P(Just kidding, not trying to compare any of you to Mr. Doobya, but I couldn't resist:-))
Well, just don't get me started on ANSI dumbness or ISO dumbness - those bodies are where most of the dumbness in SQL comes from. 😀
Or maybe I should blame IBM! :w00t:
Tom
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Tom.Thomson (7/26/2010)
Gianluca Sartori (7/26/2010)
Microsoft dumbness??? This reminds me of a recent discussion on TRY/CATCH...:-P(Just kidding, not trying to compare any of you to Mr. Doobya, but I couldn't resist:-))
Well, just don't get me started on ANSI dumbness or ISO dumbness - those bodies are where most of the dumbness in SQL comes from. 😀
Or maybe I should blame IBM! :w00t:
Quick, Steve: hide this post from Joe Celko!! 😀
-- Gianluca Sartori
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Gianluca Sartori (7/26/2010)
Tom.Thomson (7/26/2010)
Gianluca Sartori (7/26/2010)
Microsoft dumbness??? This reminds me of a recent discussion on TRY/CATCH...:-P(Just kidding, not trying to compare any of you to Mr. Doobya, but I couldn't resist:-))
Well, just don't get me started on ANSI dumbness or ISO dumbness - those bodies are where most of the dumbness in SQL comes from. 😀
Or maybe I should blame IBM! :w00t:
Quick, Steve: hide this post from Joe Celko!! 😀
I KNEW there was something I liked about Tom! 😀
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
Jeff Moden (7/24/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (7/23/2010)
Speedo under the black ghost cloak...GAH!!!! Now I have to jab out my mind's-eye!
Here, Jeff! Grab this bottle of Brain Bleach!
The pain will cease soon. I promise. @=)
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Ahhh, if I could hide posts...
I regret not building this in early and forcing developers to re-implement it over the years.
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Brandie Tarvin (7/26/2010)
Jeff Moden (7/24/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (7/23/2010)
Speedo under the black ghost cloak...GAH!!!! Now I have to jab out my mind's-eye!
Here, Jeff! Grab this bottle of Brain Bleach!
The pain will cease soon. I promise. @=)
Here's your bottle:
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Nice Steve - trying to make a point that a bigger bottle is necessary to wash away his pain?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events -
We can only hope it will....:w00t:
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Hey, now! "Size matters not!"
...I've seen bigger anyway. @=)
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GilaMonster (7/24/2010)
Lynn Pettis (7/23/2010)
It is all based on change. Going into a new position with a new company. I have some idea of what I am walking into, but things could change easily. One change is going to be also working with Oracle as well. Definately going to be learning new things.Good luck. What industry is the new company in? (if you can say)
Going to work for Honeywell. Government contracts, about all I can really say.
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Lynn Pettis (7/26/2010)
GilaMonster (7/24/2010)
Lynn Pettis (7/23/2010)
It is all based on change. Going into a new position with a new company. I have some idea of what I am walking into, but things could change easily. One change is going to be also working with Oracle as well. Definately going to be learning new things.Good luck. What industry is the new company in? (if you can say)
Going to work for Honeywell. Government contracts, about all I can really say.
wow, very cool!
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
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Lynn Pettis (7/26/2010)
Going to work for Honeywell. Government contracts, about all I can really say.Hey, now. I've seen Covert Affairs. You becoming a spy, Lynn? Quick, Everybody, link to Lynn's Facebook page so we can find out all about everything she's working on before the privacy settings get changed! @=)
On a more serious note: Congrats on the new position. I hope it works out well for you.
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jcrawf02 (7/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (7/26/2010)
GilaMonster (7/24/2010)
Lynn Pettis (7/23/2010)
It is all based on change. Going into a new position with a new company. I have some idea of what I am walking into, but things could change easily. One change is going to be also working with Oracle as well. Definately going to be learning new things.Good luck. What industry is the new company in? (if you can say)
Going to work for Honeywell. Government contracts, about all I can really say.
wow, very cool!
Agreed - congrats and good luck.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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