June 23, 2011 at 2:17 am
James
You would expect an MCM to be able to handle pretty much anything you throw at them, but I think Jeff is right - a qualification doesn't necessarily prove you can do something. Somebody posted a question the other day asking for dumps for 70-448 for example.
I would not expect somebody to turn up on the day thinking they'll have a short interview, then surprise them by asking them to perform an in-depth technical test. My process has always been to have a short (15 minutes or so) phone call first, to feel the person out and ask them some basic technical questions. If this goes well, we ask them to come in for an interview and technical test. This can take about three hours but it saves the person making multiple trips, and allows us to properly vet people.
If anybody doesn't want to go through this process then they are not the right person for us, and we're more than happy to pass on them.
The reason I said make them write some code is because I haven't always done this in the past, and it is incredible how many people have passed interview and then been kicked out during their trial period, as they could not write even basic code properly.
There's a lot of cowboys out there...
Mike.
June 23, 2011 at 9:15 am
james.morrison 19355 (6/22/2011)
mike.mcquillan (6/22/2011)
The one thing I have learnt from the interview process is MAKE THEM WRITE SOME CODE. I never used to do this and made some bad hires because of it. If I ever interview in the future I plan to present people with a problem, give them two hours and a laptop, and see what they have managed to put together.While I don't doubt that your process would be very effective at rooting out unqualified people, I suspect you would also simply be annoying the people you are trying to attract. 😛
How apolgetic are to you interviewees? "Sorry to bother you, but could you prove you can do what your resume says? Please! Ok, sorry to upset you, nevermind, you're hired!" 😛
I think it's the opposite, most qualified people love to show off their skills. If things like coding in teams, having code reviews, filling out timesheets, etc. annoy...then they won't last long in a real workplace.
To show the difference. I was interviewing interns, college seniors in computer science or IT, and would have them write basic function on a whiteboard during the interview. Most drew a blank trying to write a string reverse function in psuedocode! I took on the people who came the closest. Management, on the other hand, interviewed for the real positions and in both cases brought on people with masters in comp sci. and some experience. And then gave the people to me to train! Each one could not write basic working code to perform their job.
So no, I'm not going to believe the resume that list 12 programming languages he knows.
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How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
June 23, 2011 at 9:32 am
Jeff Moden (6/23/2011)
james.morrison 19355 (6/22/2011)
Would you really put an MCM through all of that? If the person had 3 years of experience at Microsoft, would you really be that worried about their tech skills?Abso-friggin-lutely! Have you ever looked at the crap code in the Master database? I've also had some Microsoft "pros" tell me that deadlocks (up to 100 per day, IIRC) was a perfectly acceptable and normal thing. How about a Phd in Mathematics that couldn't do a simple numbering system conversion (1416 to base 10) People with letters behind their name better bloody well be able to demonstrate that those letters actually mean something and that includes MCM's!
I don't disagree with doing a tech interview for candidates. For most of them I would certainly do so.
But if I was interviewing a SQL Server candidate who already possessed a MCM or significant Microsoft experience, I would certainly not be annoying about it with a silly 2 hour test. My point is that your strategy is likely to annoy the people that you are trying to attract.
If you are qualified on SQL Server, and I suspect you are based on what I have seen, then you know enough to tech someone out within a 30 minute conversation and discussion about databases. It is fairly easy to trip up the fakers.
Anyone that has actually achieved the MCM for SQL Server is obviously qualified for just about anything.
Like the CCIE, it is the absolute premium in certifications and there is no such thing as a "paper" MCM. They don't get a free pass, but I suspect I would be bending over backwards trying to lure that person into agreeing to work for our company.
I have been around many IT people that actually brag about how "tough" they are interviewing. It is sadistic and juvenile. For most of them it is just chest pounding and an effort to establish the pecking order. Most IT staff are too immature to actually do a tech interview for a potential candidate.
Here is a rule of thumb for interviewing someone. If you have to look up the answers to the questions you are asking, don't expect your target to know it either. Your tech interview should be based on information that is at the level of what you are hiring for.
If you are only trying to establish your dominance as an "IT God" in front of the potential new guy, then you should not be doing the interview.
June 23, 2011 at 12:07 pm
james.morrison 19355 (6/23/2011)
Jeff Moden (6/23/2011)
james.morrison 19355 (6/22/2011)
Would you really put an MCM through all of that? If the person had 3 years of experience at Microsoft, would you really be that worried about their tech skills?Abso-friggin-lutely! Have you ever looked at the crap code in the Master database? I've also had some Microsoft "pros" tell me that deadlocks (up to 100 per day, IIRC) was a perfectly acceptable and normal thing. How about a Phd in Mathematics that couldn't do a simple numbering system conversion (1416 to base 10) People with letters behind their name better bloody well be able to demonstrate that those letters actually mean something and that includes MCM's!
I don't disagree with doing a tech interview for candidates. For most of them I would certainly do so.
But if I was interviewing a SQL Server candidate who already possessed a MCM or significant Microsoft experience, I would certainly not be annoying about it with a silly 2 hour test. My point is that your strategy is likely to annoy the people that you are trying to attract.
If you are qualified on SQL Server, and I suspect you are based on what I have seen, then you know enough to tech someone out within a 30 minute conversation and discussion about databases. It is fairly easy to trip up the fakers.
Anyone that has actually achieved the MCM for SQL Server is obviously qualified for just about anything.
Like the CCIE, it is the absolute premium in certifications and there is no such thing as a "paper" MCM. They don't get a free pass, but I suspect I would be bending over backwards trying to lure that person into agreeing to work for our company.
I have been around many IT people that actually brag about how "tough" they are interviewing. It is sadistic and juvenile. For most of them it is just chest pounding and an effort to establish the pecking order. Most IT staff are too immature to actually do a tech interview for a potential candidate.
Here is a rule of thumb for interviewing someone. If you have to look up the answers to the questions you are asking, don't expect your target to know it either. Your tech interview should be based on information that is at the level of what you are hiring for.
If you are only trying to establish your dominance as an "IT God" in front of the potential new guy, then you should not be doing the interview.
Very well said!
Amol Naik
June 26, 2011 at 12:24 pm
james.morrison 19355 (6/23/2011)
Jeff Moden (6/23/2011)
james.morrison 19355 (6/22/2011)
Would you really put an MCM through all of that? If the person had 3 years of experience at Microsoft, would you really be that worried about their tech skills?Abso-friggin-lutely! Have you ever looked at the crap code in the Master database? I've also had some Microsoft "pros" tell me that deadlocks (up to 100 per day, IIRC) was a perfectly acceptable and normal thing. How about a Phd in Mathematics that couldn't do a simple numbering system conversion (1416 to base 10) People with letters behind their name better bloody well be able to demonstrate that those letters actually mean something and that includes MCM's!
I don't disagree with doing a tech interview for candidates. For most of them I would certainly do so.
But if I was interviewing a SQL Server candidate who already possessed a MCM or significant Microsoft experience, I would certainly not be annoying about it with a silly 2 hour test. My point is that your strategy is likely to annoy the people that you are trying to attract.
If you are qualified on SQL Server, and I suspect you are based on what I have seen, then you know enough to tech someone out within a 30 minute conversation and discussion about databases. It is fairly easy to trip up the fakers.
Anyone that has actually achieved the MCM for SQL Server is obviously qualified for just about anything.
Like the CCIE, it is the absolute premium in certifications and there is no such thing as a "paper" MCM. They don't get a free pass, but I suspect I would be bending over backwards trying to lure that person into agreeing to work for our company.
I have been around many IT people that actually brag about how "tough" they are interviewing. It is sadistic and juvenile. For most of them it is just chest pounding and an effort to establish the pecking order. Most IT staff are too immature to actually do a tech interview for a potential candidate.
Here is a rule of thumb for interviewing someone. If you have to look up the answers to the questions you are asking, don't expect your target to know it either. Your tech interview should be based on information that is at the level of what you are hiring for.
If you are only trying to establish your dominance as an "IT God" in front of the potential new guy, then you should not be doing the interview.
I agree... "IT God" interviews absolutely suck and serve no practical purpose whatsoever. They're usually conducted by people I wouldn't hire to begin with 😛 and certainly wouldn't want to work with or for. :hehe:
Still, I've been seriously burned by my previous bosses hiring someone using only verbal interviews for candidates selected for interview based on the letters after a person's name (and some had a pot wad of seemingly impressive letters!). While I agree that it usually takes only a 30 minute interview (usually, something less than 10 minutes) to quickly expose a poser or an inflated resume, it usually takes more time and effort to expose which of 3 or 4 remaining candidates is the best one for a job. As already stated by many, if an MCM takes exception to proving his/her worth during a practical, hands-on test that may take an hour or two, then I don't want to hire him/her anyway because (s)he doesn't have the attitude that I'm looking for.
Make no doubt about it... attitude is just as important as knowledge to me. I've hired less qualified people with less experience than others during an interview cycle simply because they were "made of the right stuff". Being willing to be tested on one's trade is just one facet of showing they have the "right stuff".
As a side bar, there's a limit to the idea of being "willing to be tested" showing the right stuff. I would never put people through some of the supposed "intelligence" testing I've seen some companies use. I've seen people that absolutley rock in whatever profession they've chosen, crash and burn during those tests. A lot of people very skilled in their trade are frequently passed-over because they can't figure out what the answer to a question like the following is ...
Bob and Ken caught some fish. Bob says to Ken, "Give me one fish and I'll have twice as many as you." Ken says to Bob, "That's not fair. Give me one fish and I'll have that same number of fish as you."
How many fish do Bob and Ken each have?
I agree... it's requires a simple simultaneous equation to find the answer. I just don't believe I need a DBA that can solve simultaneous equations. I need someone that can keep the data safe and the servers up and running and they need to demonstrate they can actually do that, MCM or not. 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 2, 2012 at 3:48 am
select ProductID,Name,
NameResults.Rank as NameRank,
DescriptionResults.Rank as DescriptionRank
from Product
left outer join
containstable(Product,Name,
'Formsof(INFLECTIONAL,red)and FORMSOF(INFLECTIONAL,blue)',
language 'english') as NameResults
on Product.ProductID=NameResults.
left outer join
containstable(Product,Description,
'Formsof(INFLECTIONAL,red)and FORMSOF(INFLECTIONAL,blue)',
language 'english') as DescriptionResults
on Product.ProductID=DescriptionResults.
where(NameResults.Rank is not null)and(DescriptionResults.Rank is not null)
order by(isnull(NameResults.Rank,0)* 3 + isnull(DescriptionResults.Rank,0))desc
March 2, 2012 at 7:33 am
ashwiniranju14 (3/2/2012)
select ProductID,Name,NameResults.Rank as NameRank,
DescriptionResults.Rank as DescriptionRank
from Product
left outer join
containstable(Product,Name,
'Formsof(INFLECTIONAL,red)and FORMSOF(INFLECTIONAL,blue)',
language 'english') as NameResults
on Product.ProductID=NameResults.
left outer join
containstable(Product,Description,
'Formsof(INFLECTIONAL,red)and FORMSOF(INFLECTIONAL,blue)',
language 'english') as DescriptionResults
on Product.ProductID=DescriptionResults.
where(NameResults.Rank is not null)and(DescriptionResults.Rank is not null)
order by(isnull(NameResults.Rank,0)* 3 + isnull(DescriptionResults.Rank,0))desc
HUH????
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